DRILL ON THE PARADE SQUARE

[Michael OLeary]

I can think of quite a few ways of accomplishing all those things that would be a more effective use of the limited ammount of training time that is available.

Drill is an antiquated way........

We teach drill because we do parades formations for various occasions, let us stop kidding ourselves.

So, if we didn't teach any drill, because it's so obviously outdated and useless, how would you suggest we organize 5 or 6 hundred troops for something like a change of command parade or to form an honour guard gaggle for a royal visit?

Since we're suggesting we do away with anything that reeks of pomp and ceremony like drill, I guess we can also dispose of dress uniforms, medal and awards, colours, and all those other things we apparently do just for show.

 

[aesop081]

So, if we didn't teach any drill, because it's so obviously outdated and useless, how would you suggest we organize 5 or 6 hundred troops for something like a change of command parade or to form an honour guard gaggle for a royal visit?

My god, it would be a disaster wouldnt it !!!!

Not. If the stated aim of drill is to instill discipline and teamwork then there are more effective ways of doing it that actualy have to do with the jobs a soldier will have to do. I didnt learn teamwork from drill. I didnt ( and still dont) get my sense of pride from parades.

Since we're suggesting we do away with anything that reeks of pomp and ceremony like drill, I guess we can also dispose of dress uniforms, medal and awards, colours, and all those other things we apparently do just for show.

Rush to judgment doesnt suit you. I never stated that we should do away with drill. We will never get rid of parades so we will continue to do parade drill. What i stated is that drill as a means of teaching teamwork, sense of pride and all the other things mentioned is an argument that was valid at one point but that there are far more effective ways to do it and ways that are more interesting to soldiers ( except for The RCR of course).

I remember reading a book about RCAF student pilots complaining about the drill during the war. The Sergeant snapped back, "How do you expect to fly in formation if you can't even walk in one!" 

Another nice historical anectode, thanks for sharing. I fly regularly with pilots who can barely look like they are in the military on the parade square but they understand and perform formation flying quite well.

They also used to force pilots to learn piano ( WW 1 i beleive) so why dont we go back to that. Would save modern day sqns from havig to burn the mess piano on repeated occasions.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Rush to judgment doesnt suit you. I never stated that we should do away with drill. We will never get rid of parades so we will continue to do parade drill. What i stated is that drill as a means of teaching teamwork, sense of pride and all the other things mentioned is an argument that was valid at one point but that there are far more effective ways to do it and ways that are more interesting to soldiers ( except for The RCR of course).

You mentioned this a few times.  There's no reason why they can't be done as well as drill. After all, the Army's going to need to find something to do once the combat mission in Afghanistan ends and the money for lengthy pre-deployment training dries up.  For further thought and discussion, what are your suggestions?

 

[OldSolduer]

You forgot one:
                    Gives you something to do on a Bde parade in Calgary in August for 90 mins while the reviewing officer sits in the mess and has his third "just one more" drink.

Which is ethically and morally wrong. What was his name again? PM me

 

[mariomike]

Another nice historical anectode, thanks for sharing.

It was was just a funny little anecdote I remembered from a light-hearted book I read years ago. As I said, these were pilot recruits. Presumably, experienced pilots were excused.  I watched "Captains of the Clouds" the other night ( with Billy Bishop awarding wings! ). I guess it jogged my memory.
I've always been impressed by military drill. 
When the military parades, it allows us civilians to show our appreciation for the work they do.
When I drilled as a Reservist, it boosted my confidence.
That's probably why I later took dancing lessons! 

 

[OldSolduer]

Maybe some of you think I'm a dinosaur MWO who's only purpose is to jack the troops up. Let me assure you I am not.

Drill, however, is absolutely essential during BMQ and SQ no matter what trade you are.

After trades training, drill still serves a purpose. I know some of you here are not Army, so bear with me.

Every morning in 2 VP we had a parade. Every afternoon we had dismissal parade. This ensured that the troops were where they were supposed to be. And if they were not, the leaders were held accountable.

That is one more reason we do drill. It doesn't hurt you (unless you try hard, and I have).

 

[aesop081]

There's no reason why they can't be done as well as drill.

You are right. My issue is not with teaching drill, it is with the mindset that drill teaches a soldier anything other than what to do when on parade.

After all, the Army's going to need to find something to do once the combat mission in Afghanistan ends and the money for lengthy pre-deployment training dries up.

Thankfully, my line of work was operationaly employed before Afghanistan and will continue to do so afterwards.

For further thought and discussion, what are your suggestions?

I did not learn teamwork, pride in the CF, the value of hardwork and discipline from drill. What i got from it was that drill sucks and i now have bad knees and a bad back.

I would rather sports be used as a means of instilling teamwork. tell a platoon of recruits they will get a weeknd off if the beat the other platoon at ball hockey and they will learn fast to work as a team and will be proud of their accomplishment.

The obstacle course can also be used. finish the course is x amount of time or less and get (insert reward here).

The bonus in these examples is that you not only accomplish stated goals but you also do much needed work to recruit's physical fitness. There are other things that can be done but you can see where i am going with this i am sure.

Tough tasks that push a group to the limit and beyond are what bring about a sense of pride in accomplishment and confidence in one's abilities, not looking good when some new Colonel reports to work.

Maybe some of you think I'm a dinosaur MWO who's only purpose is to jack the troops up.

Nope, never thought that at all.

is absolutely essential during BMQ and SQ no matter what trade you are.

It is necessary but only in the sense that they need to know where to stand and how to move on parade.

I know some of you here are not Army, so bear with me.

I spent twice as many years in the combat arms as i have in the air force.

That is one more reason we do drill.

I accomplish the same each and every day without one ounce of drill involved.

 

[OldSolduer]

Then if you are Cbt Arms, or were, then you understand why we have parades every day. I know you don't need it all that much as your crews are small when compared to a rifle company.

 

[aesop081]

why we have parades every day.

And those reasons have little to do with with pride, teamwork, etc....

I have a section of 23 and i know where they are without having to form them up in 3 ranks every morning. My flight commander manages to know where his sub-unit is, what they are doing and assign tasks without having morning roll call.....

So back to my point : Lets stop pretending that drill is a means of teaching a soldier anything that has tactical value and accept that it a means of making sure he/she know where how to stand so we can make sure he/she is at work and what to do when we have a parade.

Anyways, i'm going against the grain here so, enough of my rantings.

 

[FastEddy]

You are right. My issue is not with teaching drill, it is with the mindset that drill teaches a soldier anything other than what to do when on parade.

Thankfully, my line of work was operationaly employed before Afghanistan and will continue to do so afterwards.



I did not learn teamwork, pride in the CF, the value of hardwork and discipline from drill. What i got from it was that drill sucks and i now have bad knees and a bad back.

I would rather sports be used as a means of instilling teamwork. tell a platoon of recruits they will get a weeknd off if the beat the other platoon at ball hockey and they will learn fast to work as a team and will be proud of their accomplishment.

The obstacle course can also be used. finish the course is x amount of time or less and get (insert reward here).

The bonus in these examples is that you not only accomplish stated goals but you also do much needed work to recruit's physical fitness. There are other things that can be done but you can see where i am going with this i am sure.

Tough tasks that push a group to the limit and beyond are what bring about a sense of pride in accomplishment and confidence in one's abilities, not looking good when some new Colonel reports to work.


Nope, never thought that at all.

It is necessary but only in the sense that they need to know where to stand and how to move on parade.

I spent twice as many years in the combat arms as i have in the air force.

I accomplish the same each and every day without one ounce of drill involved.

Then by logic reasoning, if Drill and the Parade Square gave you "BAD KNEES AND A BAD BACK", then all you suggested would/shoud  KILL YOU .

 

[aesop081]

Then by logic reasoning, if Drill and the Parade Square gave you "BAD KNEES AND A BAD BACK", then all you suggested would/shoud  KILL YOU .

Thanks you for pointing that out. While drill in itself certainly did not single-handedly cause it, IMHO, it contributed to it. 17 years on, every parade is when i am most reminded of the damage caused by all those hard years.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Which is ethically and morally wrong. What was his name again? PM me

It was about '94ish, and to tell you the truth my mind has slipped a gear and can't recall the gentleman's name at all.  All I remember is that it did have a suck factor of 11.  They bussed half our regiment from Chilliwack for it.

 

[QAD]

Drill ??? 

- A Navy guy

 

[FastEddy]

Drill ??? 

- A Navy guy

Actually, the few Navy SD's (Service Detainees) we got , did very well and were quite  proficient in Drill. Also they were the least Problematic.

Whether this can be attributed to Training or Caliber of Personnel Selection. I'm not sure.


Cheers.

 

[kratz]

Where I am currently, we do not do very much drill. ie: Hands fall in, orders and announcements, then off to training.

At the start of the year we were at the base for range and CRR training. A handful of lower deckers were commenting on how crazy it was to march everywhere we went. We were not recruits, though I admit, we were passing their barracks and classrooms.

While I understand the frustration of those who commented on it, I agree it sure assisted in Ship's Company unity and camaraderie. Reading through this discussion, I appreciate the decision more why command chose to have us march.

 

[stealthylizard]

In 1VP, the extent of our drill for the most part is forming up in 3 ranks, attention, stand at east, and then dismissal.

 

[kratz]

I forgot my manners. Soup was always hot and on time too. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

I hate doing a lot of parade square bashing as much as the next man, but I would challenge anyone to come up with a credible way to present a set of Colours to a battalion, to lay a wreath on Remembrance Day, to bury a fallen comrade, or to accept a valour award from the Governor General without having some degree of competence at drill.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Drill ??? 

- A Navy guy

See post #12. Just change Air Force Base to Navy Yard ;D

 

[mariomike]

Drill is taken very seriously by the Emergency Services Honour Guards in Toronto. I believe all the Instructors are past or present members of the CF.