Dress and Deportment

[Infanteer]

I've been out a couple of decades, so forgive my ignorance, but when did the Canadian Army stop looking like soldiers?

Clearly, it was a couple of decades ago when you left.

 

[Monsoon]

Horseswallop. A couple hours practice the day before. Shine your boots the night before, have a uniform ready or do your own ironing, and get a haircut and trim the beard the night before.

None of the four beards in that photo are either outside the current regulations or unacceptable by any public norm - not sure why they're attracting so much negative comment. I would guess that folks who don't like change the new beard policy won't be satisfied with any objective standard that permits a beard.

 

[FSTO]

None of the four beards in that photo are either outside the current regulations or unacceptable by any public norm - not sure why they're attracting so much negative comment. I would guess that folks who don't like change the new beard policy won't be satisfied with any objective standard that permits a beard.

I have no qualms about a beard. Had one over the winter. Just make sure its neat and tidy, just like the rest of your appearance.

 

[Furniture]

Horseswallop. A couple hours practice the day before. Shine your boots the night before, have a uniform ready or do your own ironing, and get a haircut and trim the beard the night before.

Its not that fricken difficult folks. :facepalm:

Also this seems to be the current CDS MO. There was a guard at Esquimalt and everyone was in combats at his insistence. Bloody embarrassing.

Who doesn't get a claim finalized, which vehicle doesn't get fixed for training, what aircraft doesn't fly, so that we can have "a couple hours" of parade practice?

The CAF as a whole is short people, and we are in the middle of a posting season. What are we willing to sacrifice to get "a couple of hours" of parade practice for every visit that guard is required for?  What you're seeing on the parade is likely the result of a few hours of practice, if we want ceremonial guard level drill then we need ceremonial guard units for that purpose.

 

[FSTO]

Who doesn't get a claim finalized, which vehicle doesn't get fixed for training, what aircraft doesn't fly, so that we can have "a couple hours" of parade practice?

The CAF as a whole is short people, and we are in the middle of a posting season. What are we willing to sacrifice to get "a couple of hours" of parade practice for every visit that guard is required for?  What you're seeing on the parade is likely the result of a few hours of practice, if we want ceremonial guard level drill then we need ceremonial guard units for that purpose.

Oh for FFS we've been hearing "Don't got the bodies, Sir" BS since Noah's Ark. Its a too easy excuse not to do event correctly.

 

[garb811]

...
The beard line is supposed to be two fingers above the adam's apple and the cheeks should be clean.

There is no specification on where the beard line is supposed to be on the neck or cheeks, it is just, "A beard shall be worn with a mustache; it shall be neatly trimmed, especially on the lower neck and cheekbones; and it shall not exceed 2 cm in bulk."

Maybe at some point, some enterprising soul will take the Ceremonial CADPAT order of dress to the logical extension and order medals as well.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Horseswallop. A couple hours practice the day before. Shine your boots the night before, have a uniform ready or do your own ironing, and get a haircut and trim the beard the night before.

Its not that fricken difficult folks. :facepalm:

Also this seems to be the current CDS MO. There was a guard at Esquimalt and everyone was in combats at his insistence. Bloody embarrassing.

I looked at the beards again, they are fine as far as dress standards are concerned.  It's really the combats that I have an issue with.

Firstly, the PM and the Secretary General are in Business Formal Attire.  Protocol should dictate you don't wear pyjamas when someone is wearing a business suit.  Secondly, it's called an "Honour Guard" for a reason.  You don't Honour the Prime Minister and his guest the NATO Secretary General by wearing pyjamas.  Your soldiers should be well turned out in their dress uniform, medals on display with effort put in to their appearance. 

This is a great example of "going through the motions" something I've heard people on this site harp about with respect to this organization in countless threads.  I'm of the mindset, if you aren't going to do something right, why do it at all?  Quarter Guards and Guards of Honour are Ceremonies, there is a reason we call it "Ceremonial Dress".

There is no specification on where the beard line is supposed to be on the neck or cheeks, it is just, "A beard shall be worn with a mustache; it shall be neatly trimmed, especially on the lower neck and cheekbones; and it shall not exceed 2 cm in bulk."

Maybe at some point, some enterprising soul will take the Ceremonial CADPAT order of dress to the logical extension and order medals as well.

Maybe I am being totally asinine but a lot of dress guidelines are inferred.  Ask any barber where they would trim your beard on your neck, "2 fingers above the adam's apple" would be the answer.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I guess the dress chosen was a concession to the reality that those folks had jobs they were doing before the VIPs arrived, and jobs to return to after they left. It's good to see that the days of spending a week (or more) doing nothing but preparing for low-impact turn-out parades like this are in the past at Pet, at least.

I can understand that, however when I first saw this on TV news my first thought was "why was he carrying a sword".  Perhaps the impression that they were trying to make was that even with outdated weapons the CF is ready to defend the world.  I've formed guards in both service dress and combats, but my understanding was that the weapons (and accoutrements) would be consistent with the order of dress.

1. The following items are authorized for wear with ceremonial and service dress uniforms:
a.  aiguillettes;
b.  Royal cyphers and personal badges;
c.  ceremonial belts, and related equipment;
d.  swords;
e.  sashes;
f.  pace sticks and canes;
g.  mourning bands;

In the days of yore, if a guard was mounted in combats, the appropriate arms for the guard commander was a pistol.

As much as it seems to be the trend to dismiss all this as meaningless and an interference with the normal business of soldiering, the CF is one of the few publicly visible governmental organizations that demonstrate "protocol".  I tried to find what any applicable Canadian protocol publication had to say about what would be the appropriate honours that would be rendered the NATO Secretary General (I assumed that the protocol for the PM was readily available).  However, I was not able to find any Canadian references online (though I found plenty from other countries and for NATO for that matter).

I'm not really sure about the purpose of the Sec Gen and the PM visiting Petawawa.  There may have been more than the brief statement that Sec Gen Stoltenberg made (I really didn't pay that much attention to the news report, it didn't seem important) but the impression that the show put on was important - that's the purpose of "protocol" - to make a good impression.  If there is anything worse than not providing protocol is providing protocol poorly.  This was providing protocol poorly.

 

[BDTyre]

They look like crap.  Slovenly in fact.  The Officer's dress and deportment is atrocious. 

What part is atrocious? His boots are black and appear to be polished to the standards one would expect for combat boots. His pants appear to fit and are evenly bloused. His tunic fits and the arm length seems to be fine. Neither part are excessively worn or faded. His name tag and patches are on evenly and not scrunched up, worn or faded. His beret, while maybe a little high on his head fits and seems formed acceptably.

 

[Jarnhamar]

*edited, just seen similar comment

 

[Private_John_Winger]

Who doesn't get a claim finalized, which vehicle doesn't get fixed for training, what aircraft doesn't fly, so that we can have "a couple hours" of parade practice?

The CAF as a whole is short people, and we are in the middle of a posting season. What are we willing to sacrifice to get "a couple of hours" of parade practice for every visit that guard is required for?  What you're seeing on the parade is likely the result of a few hours of practice, if we want ceremonial guard level drill then we need ceremonial guard units for that purpose.

Oh stop it. You make it sound like the army's on an imminent war footing and every spare minute needs to be spent on the range. That's not the case. Ceremonial duties are part of soldiering, just as much as "finalizing claims"(some would say more so!). I served in 2 Commando and one of the things that brought us down was the fact we managed to convince ourselves that we were above "all that leg battalion ashphalt soldier crap." We weren't, and the eventual results demonstrated the fallacy of that kind of hubristic attitude.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Blackadder1916]

I'm not really sure about the purpose of the Sec Gen and the PM visiting Petawawa. 
[/quote]

Just some NATO related meeting. Not sure why they picked Petawawa. I believe most units summer leave blocks are until the 21st of July. Wouldn't be surprised if some people were called in off leave to do this parade. I hate ceremonial dress with a passion but agree ceremonial drill should be done in dress uniforms and not combat uniforms.

Honour guards are supposed to be the biggest baddest toughest members of a unit. Being picked for an honour guard should be an honour (PWOR did that one year, I was impressed).  These days honour guards are whoever is available.

 

[garb811]

...
Maybe I am being totally asinine but a lot of dress guidelines are inferred.  Ask any barber where they would trim your beard on your neck, "2 fingers above the adam's apple" would be the answer.

I don't disagree with you on that point, but inferred guidelines are notoriously difficult to enforce. Given the way this is written, someone could basically show up with a quasi chin-strap and argue that they are still within the rules. The picture provided as an example is of no help as there are no landmarks or measurements provided, unlike the sideburns which are supposed to bisect the ear, the back of the hair which is supposed to be 2.5cm above the collar and the moustache which is supposed to extend to the corners of the mouth...

 

[dimsum]

I don't care if the one of those soldiers is a Victoria Cross winner. You wouldn't know it to look at any of them and that's all the public sees. Serious institutions like the UK/US Marines, British Guard Regiments, etc. understand that. We used to understand that in Canada but seem to have forgotten it.

This is likely a parade on base (?) and not in the public eye.  Hell, UK armed forces actually do full on parades in public in combats.  Where's the gnashing of teeth there?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325464/Thousands-line-streets-Royal-Marines-home-town-mark-heroes-return-final-tour-Afghanistan.html

 

[bick]

I think the point that Winger is trying to make is that we have dress uniforms for functions like this and combat uniforms for everyday wear. Also, why not have a unit of uniform soldiers provide the guard?  Why does everything in Cdn society need to reflect everyone?  Army guys, airborne army guys, AF guys. Task a unit and do the job. Also, I think wearing their theatre uniforms to a welcome home parade is a little different then this scenario.

 

[Blackadder1916]

This is likely a parade on base (?) and not in the public eye. 

This is the age of social media, hell, this was an event to which the "the media" was invited in the hope that they would publicize it.  I don't know how they could be less in the public eye.

As to the RM parade in combats, they are not much different that a similar mix in a Canadian arms unit except that everyone in that parade (with the exception of the captain in the brown beret and the USMC officer) has received the green beret, including the sailor (likely the MO).

 

[The Bread Guy]

… why not have a unit of uniform soldiers provide the guard?  Why does everything in Cdn society need to reflect everyone?  Army guys, airborne army guys, AF guys. Task a unit and do the job ...

You have any evidence that the mix of the guard was to "reflect everyone"?  I stand to be corrected, but it's not impossible that this was who was available in the timeframe.  Also, are there any units @ Petawawa that might have a mix of such folks?

I get the need for fancy-shmancy uniforms from time to time, but as an old fart myself, I have no problem with presentable dress of the day even for the PM & NATO's SecGen #WorkingBaseWorkingClothing

 

[Old EO Tech]

They look like crap.  Slovenly in fact.  The Officer's dress and deportment is atrocious. 

Regarding beards, since BEARDFORGEN came out, a lot of people are growing beards.  One thing I've noticed is almost nobody does a good job with their beard grooming.  The beard line is supposed to be two fingers above the adam's apple and the cheeks should be clean.

Exactly were are you quoting this 2 fingers from?  That is not what the CFG says, all it says is the beard must be trimmed at the neck, last time I checked the neck ends at the adams apple and anything above the adams apple is chin not neck....

 

[FJAG]

Horseswallop. A couple hours practice the day before. Shine your boots the night before, have a uniform ready or do your own ironing, and get a haircut and trim the beard the night before.

Its not that fricken difficult folks. :facepalm:

Also this seems to be the current CDS MO. There was a guard at Esquimalt and everyone was in combats at his insistence. Bloody embarrassing.

This might come as a surprise to you but there are quite a few of us who aren't ashamed of parading in the public in combat dress. It tends to remind people that we aren't merely civil servants in a slightly different colour of shirt and tie business suit.

The different colour berets don't bother me. That's an issue dealing with identity and tradition. The boots on the other hand are ridiculous and a result of a seriously failed procurement policy and in my mind are a badge of shame which we really should fix.

Beards. Personally I don't like them but then again I'm still wearing the same mustache that was au courant amongst all the regimental officers in the 1970s. So what do I know.

;D

 

[Old EO Tech]

I think the point that Winger is trying to make is that we have dress uniforms for functions like this and combat uniforms for everyday wear. Also, why not have a unit of uniform soldiers provide the guard?  Why does everything in Cdn society need to reflect everyone?  Army guys, airborne army guys, AF guys. Task a unit and do the job. Also, I think wearing their theatre uniforms to a welcome home parade is a little different then this scenario.

I do agree this should have been done in DEU 1A, it's not that hard to get dressed in that.  And weapons/swords should not even be seen in CADPAT except for parade practices, no were in the CAF Dress Regs does an order of dress exist for work dress(which is what CADPAT or NCD with Berets is) with white belts/wpns/swords...