Dress and Deportment

[Haggis]

I live in Ottawa, and, well, seems like some people are getting a little to comfortable with their officer jobs. A fit military is a confident military. I don't understand the lack of motivation to do PT with some people, being fit feels good.

I work in Ottawa.  In many cases, finding the time to do PT has little to do with motivation and more to do with workload and the NDHQ lifestyle.

Shortly after arriving at NDHQ, I started taking time to do PT (and I still do).  Every afternoon, I would go for a run along the canal, followed by some body-weight strength training (my building didn't have a gym).  Almost immediately my civilian co-workers remarked that I was "leaving early".  I explained why I was "leaving early" and it was a hard sell to those who don't have a "Physical Fitness Test" box to tick off on their PER.

Secondly, the civilians who work at NDHQ (both real and "uniformed") don't really care much if the meeting they've just scheduled bumps PT off your calendar.  Very few civilian managers will factor in PT when doing thier time estimate for the task they've just assigned you.  And if that task or project is due tomorrow, taking time off for PT just doesn't fit the bill.

Addtionally, most who work at NDHQ have their work day extended by a commute.  If you carpool, as many do, your schedule is tied to that of four or five other folks who couldn't care less if you're fit as long as they don't miss "Everybody Loves Raymond".

In short, the NDHQ lifestyle can quickly turn even the most hardened field soldier into a uniformed public servant. (Ever see the standard of dress of the Canadian Coast Guard?)

All that being said, a major shift in attitude is required in the NCR.  Like it or not, fitness IS a big part of dress and deportment.  Simply ordering all the Warrant Officers and Officers into DEU to make the NCR "look more professional" is not going to fix the problem if the said Warrant Officer can't button his DEU tunic.

Dress and deportment is a combination of kit maintenance, fitness and personal pride.  A uniformed public servant doesn't have those any more than a professional soldier has dreadlocks in uniform.

 

[beach_bum]

Shortly after arriving at NDHQ, I started taking time to do PT (and I still do).   Every afternoon, I would go for a run along the canal, followed by some body-weight strength training (my building didn't have a gym).   Almost immediately my civilian co-workers remarked that I was "leaving early".   I explained why I was "leaving early" and it was a hard sell to those who don't have a "Physical Fitness Test" box to tick off on their PER.

Secondly, the civilians who work at NDHQ (both real and "uniformed") don't really care much if the meeting they've just scheduled bumps PT off your calendar.   Very few civilian managers will factor in PT when doing thietheire estimate for the task they've just assigned you.   And if that task or project is due tomorrow, taking time off for PT just doesn't fit the bill.

It's not just a problem at NDHQ, it's really a forces wide problem.  I have had civilian DND employees complain bitterly about us taking PT, despite the fact that they are not assessed on it.  When I brought up the point to them that if they wanted PT so much, perhaps they should join, I got a "talking to".  Also, I can't count the number of times I had heard "PT is cancelled until further notice" due to heavy work loads and dead lines.  Well, lets be honest...we always have heavy work loads and dead lines.  There have been many instances where I have been on my way out to do PT (at the scheduled time) when I have been hauled aside and given the speech on how much work there is, and can I really afford to go on PT.  Or, the "it must be nice" in that snarky tone, trying to make you feel guilty!    :  It almost seems that a lot of people think that PT is a luxury that should be handed out as a treat.  It should be mandatory every day.  If someone has a legitimate chit for an injury, there are probably some things that person can still do until they are fit again.

 

[Gunner]

The express test is a joke and the BFT is usually poorly monitored to enforce acceptible standards.  Has anyone ever seen an extremely large man or women carry someone of similar weight 100 meters?  Probably not, as they always pick up the 100 lb soaking wet clerk to do it.

I've always been a proponent of mandatory PT for the entire army as, unfortunately, it seems the first thing thrown out when the training schedule gets compressed is PT.  What's stopping the army from instituting a mandatory 0730 - 0830 hrs PT period for all members?  Showers between 0830 and 0900 hrs, and start work at 0900 hrs?  Although the BMI program was poorly introduce and caused no end of heartache for the army, at least it motivated some of us to get into the gyms, etc and deflate the psi on your DEU buttons.   

There would be alot less excuses if it was mandatory.... 

 

[a_majoor]

A bit of a tie in from other threads, but perhaps "fitness" would be an easier sell if it was done in the form of martial arts training.

There are various benifits in terms of focus and mental ability, as well as strength, flexibility and coordination improvements (this is true regardless of the art being used for training). People will even think of themselves as "warriors", despite the fact that most martial arts are best suited for the dojo (before you start flaming, put on your FFO, body armour and tac vest; THEN try to do your art).

Plenty of service members are qualified as high ranking menbers of varous martial art forms, so a pool of in house instructors is already available.

 

[Haggis]

As I said, a fundamental PART of dress and deportment is fitness.  It is not a cure all.  A super-fit soldier who doesn't press his DEU or get a haircut is still a shytebag and a poor example to his subordinates and the public.

You wanna look like a pro in uniform?  Take pride in yourself.  Maintain your kit.  Maintain yourself so you fit in your kit.

 

[Neill McKay]

Why do CIC officers wear uniforms which differ, quite markedly, from those worn by cadets?

Because CIC officers are CF members, and cadets are not.

 

[Big Foot]

I would tend to agree with you that standards need to be better enforced, Piper. However, these standards would need to be enforced on every member of the CF, be it a CIC officer, Res NCM or the CDS. We all wear the same uniform (whether the CIC should or not is the topic for another discussion), therefore as LGen Carron said today, we are all part of the same team. As such, we must all do our part and present the public with the image of a well dressed, professional soldier. For those who think lax standards on their part make them look bad, it reflects badly on the rest of the military. However, I ask you, how do you ensure the dress and deportment standard for everyone in uniform? The answer is, you can't. Basic training tries to instill personal pride in people but unless they really buy into it, its hard to enforce, especially with Reserves and CICs. I agree something needs to be done, however I think even more emphasis should be placed on personal appearance in all basic courses, be it IAP, BMQ or whatever it is that CIC officers do. We are all a team and we all represent each other. If one person looks like a bag of shyte, we all do.

 

[Highland Lad]

...I ask you, how do you ensure the dress and deportment standard for everyone in uniform? The answer is, you can't.

Sorry, but we can. As was pointed out above, that is why the CF has an escalating system of warnings, C&P, remedial training, etc, etc, ad nauseam. The problem is that all takes is for one supervisor to decide that 'something that minor isn't worth the trouble...' for it all to go to shyte (and all it takes is for one supervisor to find out from his/her superiors that they won't back disciplinary action for something 'so minor' to become disillusioned with the system all over again).

Remember, they are called 'standards', not 'options'.

 

[Big Foot]

My point is, there are people who don't have RSMs, who can't really be watched by senior NCOs, and those people just so happen to be CIC officers. I know the regs and res can be watched and corrected, but how do we deal with the CIC?

 

[Neill McKay]

My point is, there are people who don't have RSMs, who can't really be watched by senior NCOs, and those people just so happen to be CIC officers. I know the regs and res can be watched and corrected, but how do we deal with the CIC?

Everyone has a boss.  Whether the boss is a senior NCM or an officer is really immaterial -- all the bosses should do their jobs and maintain high standards among their subordinates.

 

[Neill McKay]

There are reg/reserve CWO's and MWO's who work at cadet camps in the summer, maybye something to be applied on a more permanent basis, each RCSU has a small complement of sergeants major to tour/inspect cadet corps throughout the year to ensure such things (this would be different from the CIC who work cadet standards units).

There are already regional staffers who visit the corps and squadrons at least a couple of times a year.  These are typically Lt(N)/Capt, SLt/Lt, or PO1/WO.  Presumably D&D are among the things they look at.

 

[Acorn]

Sorry, but we can. As was pointed out above, that is why the CF has an escalating system of warnings, C&P, remedial training, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

The consequences of some of those administrative actions are more far reaching than some consider. Frankly, I'd rather be charged than have a warning or go on C&P.

Acorn

 

[Highland Lad]

Yep - I know what you mean... but my point is that we have a whole system of methods for dealing with shyte-bags, that just doesn't get used effectively at times - and some people need a few 'object lessons' to understand that some things that are overlooked on a regular basis in today's CF, shouldn't be.

If standards of Dress & Deportment were better enforced & maintained, then there wouldn't be an issue. As was pointed out earlier, however, just about every bag of shyte can point to an example (usually in their own CoC) of someone who is worse.

Remove those bad examples, and all of a sudden people will realize that no-one is exempt from fulfilling the requirements of the job, not even clierks, dental assistants, or mechanics who will never have to hump an 80 lb ruck over half of Afghanistan.

 

[JAFMA]

Does anyone know how you can access the CF Dress Reg's via the internet without going through the DIN?

 

[Arctic Acorn]

"There are already regional staffers who visit the corps and squadrons at least a couple of times a year.  These are typically Lt(N)/Capt, SLt/Lt, or PO1/WO.  Presumably D&D are among the things they look at."

Thats great, but it's easy to dress up and look pretty "at least a couple of times a year".

I'm sure most CIC officers can understand where the rest of the CF is coming from here. Personally, I see nothing wrong with them, but frankly I think they suffer from an identity crisis. Yes, you are reserve personnel, but there are fundamental differences in the way reserve soldiers and the CIC do business. The only thing that really gets me (and I've only seen this in a few cases, this is not a all-inclusive to the CIC) is when I have seen CIC officers argue that they are Reserve personnel and therefore should be treated exactly the same as everyone else (especially when it comes to authority over reserve troops), but the second fitness tests or disciplinary issues arise, all of a sudden they don't count anymore. Fish or foul, folks...pick one.

As for the uniform issue, I think it's a great idea for CIC personnel to wear the same uniform as the cadets. It was mentioned by a CIC that there is no RSS CSM/RSM/Cox'n position in cadet units. So, as officers, they SHOULD be setting the standard for dress and deportment, and what better way for them to do that than to wear the same uniform. One argument given to this was that as reservists, they are entitled to the same uniform as other reservists. As a response to that, look at the Canadian Rangers. They're reservists as well, and they have a distinct uniform, same as the cadets have a distinct uniform. Even better, everyone who is a ranger or even posted to a position within a ranger unit wears the same uniform. Are you saying that you refuse even to wear the same uniform as the kids you're in charge of? I was recently on course in Camp Aldershot, and looking at some of the new jackets and such the cadets were wearing (those who actually were wearing them), they looked perfectly suitable to me. As a question to any CIC reading, what is so wrong with cadet uniforms that you'll tell a 12-year old kid to wear them, but you won't?

Cheers,

:dontpanic:

 

[Neill McKay]

"There are already regional staffers who visit the corps and squadrons at least a couple of times a year.   These are typically Lt(N)/Capt, SLt/Lt, or PO1/WO.   Presumably D&D are among the things they look at."

Thats great, but it's easy to dress up and look pretty "at least a couple of times a year".

The rest of the time, the chain of comamnd is still there to do its job.  But that aside, I would suggest to you that a slob will continue to be a slob when the regional staffer comes around.  If they don't know better the rest of the time, they probably won't know better then.

I'm sure most CIC officers can understand where the rest of the CF is coming from here. Personally, I see nothing wrong with them, but frankly I think they suffer from an identity crisis. Yes, you are reserve personnel, but there are fundamental differences in the way reserve soldiers and the CIC do business. The only thing that really gets me (and I've only seen this in a few cases, this is not a all-inclusive to the CIC) is when I have seen CIC officers argue that they are Reserve personnel and therefore should be treated exactly the same as everyone else (especially when it comes to authority over reserve troops), but the second fitness tests or disciplinary issues arise, all of a sudden they don't count anymore. Fish or foul, folks...pick one.

That would bother me as well.  Fortunately such people have been a trivial minority in my experience.

It was mentioned by a CIC that there is no RSS CSM/RSM/Cox'n position in cadet units.

That must have been a misunderstanding.  There definitely is such a position in a cadet unit, held by a senior cadet.

 

[Big Foot]

That must have been a misunderstanding.  There definitely is such a position in a cadet unit, held by a senior cadet.

I think he was refering to an actual Reg or Res NCM, not a cadet.

 

[Riobeard]

I think the moderators should set up a CIC bashing section, as this seems to be some sort of sport on these forums, it's not a debate in any way, it's simply a way for a bunch of teen aged or uninformed individuals to take shots and hide behind a computer screen.
Yes there are examples of individuals who don't meet the standards of physical fitness, dress and deportment in the CIC we all have seen these examples.  But there are also the same individuals in the Reserves and in the Regular forces.  How do I know?  I've been in each and until such time as each of you can say the same, perhaps you can stop using your short sighted and limited experience to continue in your rants.  As for those who share the depth and breadth of experience I welcome your comments and value them, I also take notice that they are more constuctive and balanced.
If ANY of you have problems with the CIC, then I suggest you stop your rants and get involved, we'd love to have you help us raise the standards and bring your personal wealth of experience to the movement.  How about becoming part of the solution vs. the Problem?
If you'd like to post suggestions, please do, but lets be constructive folks.  And if your going to voice your opinions which you are free to do, please don't go off on tangents.
Just remember the old Irish proverb that when you're point your finger there are three more point back at yourself......
End of my Rant. 

 

[Neill McKay]

If ANY of you have problems with the CIC, then I suggest you stop your rants and get involved, we'd love to have you help us raise the standards and bring your personal wealth of experience to the movement.   How about becoming part of the solution vs. the Problem?

Perhaps the best post on this topic that I've read so far.

I would underline the invitation for people with experience in the regular force or primary reserve to put some serious thought into transferring into the CIC once you're done in your current trade.  Those who join the CIC from elsewhere in the Forces have a great deal to offer.

 

[Meridian]

I dont see how there is bashing going on. What I do find is that everytime a comment is negative (whether constructive or not), CIC members immediately claim they are being bashed.

JavaMan's comments were very fair.. he presented logical arguments and asked specific questions. Instead of responding to those questions, you instead claim you are being bashed.

This is the same sort of round-a-bout speak you get from politicians. Instead of answering a directed question, you avoid it and claim you are being hounded/berated.

Dress and deportment is an issue amongst ALL branches. Clearly so, based on the posts in this thread... But I specifically enumerated an instance where a LARGE group of CIC officers were together, in one area, and FOREIGN officers immediately noticed a difference between them and all the other officers who frequently visited CFSJ.    The uniforms were the same, so why the difference in viewpoint?

Im not saying ALL CIC officers are overweight and cant meet dress standards....   In fact Im sure some of you are exemplary leaders....   but some are not, so how are you addressing this?