Dress and Deportment

[Blackadder1916]

Define "neatly trimmed".  That's one of the problems with requiring a standard without providing explicit instructions what that standard entails.  But what does "trim" mean.  In the famous opinion of Potter Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that".  That seems to be the situation that the powers that be were aiming for, or at least I would hope that there was an actual point that they were aiming for.

I thought that previous versions of dress instructions included words such as "the unshaven portion of the face" or similar, but in looking at some versions from a few years ago it was written much as it is today.  So defining a beard has probably been much the same since we likely copied the Royal Navy's instructions that explained how a beard should look.  But even that organization recently had to amend their beard regulations from a simple couple of lines to the following:

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/media/royal-navy-responsive/documents/reference-library/br-3-vol-1/chapter-38.pdf

d. Beards and Moustaches. The Commanding Officer may permit all Naval
Service (except RM) male personnel to request to wear full set beards. RM male
personnel may wear moustaches at their discretion. Beards and moustaches shall be
kept neatly trimmed especially, in the case of beards, at the lower neck and
cheekbones. It is within the subjective judgement of the Command (and delegated
representatives, namely the Executive Dept and all personnel in positions of authority
(LH/LCpl and above)) to define an acceptable appearance of a beard, as much
depends on the features of the individual. However, as a guide the following
characteristics are not acceptable:

(1) 'Designer Stubble'. Designer stubble is assessed as any beard length
shorter than Grade 1 (2.5mm).

(2) Beards of Uneven Growth (eg. 'scrappy'). The definition of 'scrappy'
remains within the subjective judgement of the Command (and delegated
representatives, namely the Executive Dept and all personnel in positions of
authority (LH/LCpl and above)).

(3) Extended or 'hipster' Beards or ‘handlebar’ moushaches. Extended or
'hipster' beards or ‘handlebar’/extended moustaches are not appropriate. The
maximum acceptable length of a beard is to be Grade 8 (25.5mm).

(4) Beards Taking Excessive Time to Grow. The definition of an 'excessive
amount of time to grow' remains within the subjective judgement of the Command
(and delegated representatives, namely the Executive Dept and all personnel in
positions of authority (LH/LCpl and above)). The advised maximum time for an
individual to grow a sufficiently thorough beard is 2 weeks.

(5) Religious or Faith Reasons. Where facial hair is grown as a tenet of a faith
by a genuine adherence to that faith, it may be grown in excess of the limit
described above at sub para (3). Such facial hair may require to be trimmed,
however, or be tied up or removed if it undermines the health and safety of the
wearer or others in the unit, or if it undermines the operational effectiveness of the
unit. Any faith or practice must be clearly established by an individual and not
simply deemed as having been undertaken in order to defy the regulations
contained within this BR.

On reading that, I have now lived to see "hipster" used as a definition in official military regulations.  How times have changed.  The previous version of that regulation included only that portion of para d. up to and including "Beards and moustaches shall be kept neatly trimmed especially, in the case of beards, at the lower neck and cheekbones".  Everything following that and including the part I highlighted about command subjective judgement was added for the latest version.

 

[TCM621]

I'll be frank here. Your embarrassment sounds like a personal problem. Because this is definitely the type of stuff that only people in the CAF ever seem to get worked up about. The public doesn't have a massive preference for seeing people in their DEUs rather than combats. They're just fine seeing us in the orders of dress in which we actually work. What's the point of blackening work boots? Hell, half of them are brown now-a-days anyways. Those "unkempt" beards you're going on about? Likely well within regulations. 2 cm of bulk is a fair amount of beard, and no where in the regulations does it state stuff like keeping your neck shaved which I also often see as a complaint.

Frankly, I'd kindly suggest that it'd be a lot better for your mental health if you try to focus upon being embarrassed only for yourself and your own actions, and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing. Because, once again, none of this actually affects operational performance. So therefore a lot of people who got into this job to actually defend Canada, and didn't join for the dog-and-pony shows simply won't give a hoot, and will put in the bare minimum required to adhere to the minimum standards set out in the regulations.

Maybe if more people felt embarrassed about the state of our military, we would be in a better place than we are now.  And if you think the CAF are the only people who care about a professional appearance, you're just wrong. Any organization where people where a uniform is a place where they care about appearance. At 16, I had a job at Footlocker and we had dress standards there. McDonald's expects a certain standard of dress for their management. The military takes it farther than almost anywhere else but did anyone join with some other idea of how the military was when it came to appearance?

I care about the CAF. It bothers me that we are know as the poorest, fattest, most unprofessional looking military in a first world country.  There are a lot of things we can't fix. If your flight suit is threadbare and it's the best one you could get, there is nothing you can do about it. If we are begging other militaries for equipment because we don't have them. There is nothing we can do about it. On the other hand, it takes less than 2 hours worth of work a month to ensure you project the best image you can.

I don't care if your beard is 1.75 cm or 2.5 cms, just groom it in a neat manner and you're good to go.  Boots are beaten up, supply does not have your size and you are in the air force so you can't benefit from BOOTFORGEN?  Throw some of the black cream on once or twice a week so it stays black. Cut your hair every two weeks. Go in with a buddy and buy some clippers if you are concerned about 30-40 dollars a month.  It's so easy and most people spend more time complaining about "petty dictators" than just doing it.  A professional appearance have positive effect on both public perception and one's self confidence leading to increased performance.

 

[mariomike]

Any organization where people where a uniform is a place where they care about appearance. At 16, I had a job at Footlocker and we had dress standards there. McDonald's expects a certain standard of dress for their management.

If you are paid to help the public, dress and deportment - what some may call manners, attitude, behavior, courtesy or etiquette - are critical. Especially when going into a home.

In the Service Corps, we watched our driving. It communicated our regard for public safety. The trucks were a four-sided billboard.

How times have changed. 

Everything seemed so simple. Sh!t, shower, shave, shine. 

 

[OldSolduer]

When you sign the dotted line, you agreed to obey all lawful orders. Those include fitness, dress, deportment and maybe on the odd occasion doing foot drill. You may not like it but you’re commited to obey those lawful orders. 

 

[mariomike]

When you sign the dotted line, you agreed to obey all lawful orders. Those include fitness, dress, deportment and maybe on the odd occasion doing foot drill. You may not like it but you’re commited to obey those lawful orders.

I don't think many would refuse a lawful order.

But, personal and professional pride is something inside you. Some have it. Some don't.

 

[OldSolduer]

I don't think many would refuse a lawful order.

But, personal and professional pride is something inside you. Some have it. Some don't.

I agree. Drill, like it or not, is needed. A pilots checklist is a drill as is diving a submarine a drill as is attacking a defer position a drill.

Foot drill sets you up for success.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I agree. Drill, like it or not, is needed. A pilots checklist is a drill as is diving a submarine a drill as is attacking a defer position a drill.

Foot drill sets you up for success.

Nope, it does not.

 

[Remius]

https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/the-importance-of-drill.html


So are we a capable and effective military right now? When were we?

If we are not it certainly shows in our drill. When we were did it also show in our drill?

The end.

 

[gcclarke]

C'mon people, it's not the 17th century anymore. You don't conduct warfare by lining people up on the battlefield and moving towards the enemy in unison. Drill had it's time and its place as an actual useful skill, but that was then, this is now. It serves nothing more than a purely ceremonial function. Pomp and circumstance doesn't win wars.

I agree. Drill, like it or not, is needed. A pilots checklist is a drill as is diving a submarine a drill as is attacking a defer position a drill.

Foot drill sets you up for success.

That's not "drill". Or at least, it's not drill in the manner the term is commonly used in the military.  That's just "doing your job" or "training". If you're going to go around calling literally everything we do drill, then we could easily just toss out the "walking around in unison" part of drill and focus upon practicing solely the "drill" that actually helps us to do our jobs of defeating the enemy. Marching up and down the parade square doesn't do diddly squat to help you dive a sub or anything of the sort; instead it just takes up time that could otherwise devoted to actually practicing those skills.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It's not the 17th century anymore, correct.  Foot and rifle drill still have a purpose aside from the ceremonial aspect.

Basic training.  Not sure how many people here have taken civilians and trained them from scratch but drill is a very effective and cheap way to train people to (1) pay attention and react to words of command instantly and correctly (2) focus on detail (3) work as an individual that is also part of a team (4) improve physical fitness and (5) esprit de corps.

The same goes for kit and quarters.  If you are too fuckin' lazy or stupid to be able to manage a bed layout, what are the chances you'll be able to manage working on vehicles, or fixing complex RADARs, or whatever?  So, like drill has an actual purpose in it being taught...kit and quarters does as well.  Don't agree?  You've probably never trained recruits before and only have your own Basic experience to relate to.  Kit and quarters is the easiest teamwork exercise in the military if done right.

Part of the overall goal of these "petty" things in the military is to take people from the "imposed discipline" stage to the "self discipline" stage (doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time, even if no one is watching);  I'm not pulling that out of my ass, that was a lecture from SLC back in 2002 (Imposed, Group, Habits and Rituals, Self Discipline)  They are effective, cheap ways for instructors to transform you from a greasy civie to a trained Recruit/OCdt/NCdt.  Drill isn't the only tool, but it is one and its worked for decades.  And yup, we're in the military.  Part of what we do is parades.  CofC Parades, Remembrance Day Parades, we even partake in Pride parades in this day and age. 

Ceremonies are part of the job a military does.  People complaining about doing parades once or twice a year should seriously consider if the military is what they want to do.  Ordered to a mess dinner once a year and it makes you want to punch holes in walls?  You should be thinking about a career change as well.  Those things are part of military life. 

We are becoming too weak, complacent and whiny about simple, simple things that are and always have been part of being in the Service. 

 

[gcclarke]

Sure, it might be useful in basic training, in order to give them... something that you can yell at them about. But there's a lot of things we do on basic training that we don't ever touch again once they graduate basic training, or perhaps never touch again once they're done their basic occupational training.

Why not make drill one of them?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Sure, it might be useful in basic training, in order to give them... something that you can yell at them about. But there's a lot of things we do on basic training that we don't ever touch again once they graduate basic training, or perhaps never touch again once they're done their basic occupational training.

Why not make drill one of them?

Because drill is part of being in the military.  The best place to teach it is basic, because it teaches more than just to "move on the 1, pause on the 2-3s".  It is a cheap effective way to start to teach things like discipline, attention to details, etc to NCM and Officer recruits.

Have you ever, even for a day or a week, taught recruits right off the street?? 

 

[OldSolduer]

The best way for a group to move from point A to point B is en masse. Doing drill. Not looking unorganized and like amateurs. I wanted to avoid saying this but if you don’t want to do drill or object to it vehemently then find another line of work.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

C'mon people, it's not the 17th century anymore. You don't conduct warfare by lining people up on the battlefield and moving towards the enemy in unison. Drill had it's time and its place as an actual useful skill, but that was then, this is now. It serves nothing more than a purely ceremonial function. Pomp and circumstance doesn't win wars.

No, well trained folks who react instinctively  to what they've been taught to do in situations when the pressure is on win wars.
I was a completely uncordinated,  totally insecure,  lump when I hit Cornwallis.  Couldn't/ wouldnt  play sports, or speak up for the life of me.  Drill took me from a bear-walking "WTF is that?" person, to being a confident ,coordinated man, who pretty much never self doubted himself again. I spent most of my career working in various Arty CP's and enjoyed a lifetime of physical activities from what I learned about myself because of drill and/or repetition.
Keeping those lessons learned front and centre can only be a good thing....

 

[mariomike]

(5) esprit de corps.

Yes. That is what it meant for me.

Drill gave me a sense of pride in myself, and the organization. I am still thankful for what our NCOs taught me. Not just drill, but a lot of things.

 

[ballz]

C'mon people, it's not the 17th century anymore. You don't conduct warfare by lining people up on the battlefield and moving towards the enemy in unison. Drill had it's time and its place as an actual useful skill, but that was then, this is now. It serves nothing more than a purely ceremonial function. Pomp and circumstance doesn't win wars.

I find this thread nauseating, but just thought I would point out here in that yes, there is still utility in this. Just two years ago, I was practicing literally drill manouevres, left turns, wheels, and rolls, with a company's worth of LAVs. I used to apply the same thing as a Pl Comd to manouevre dismounted sections and LAVs. Common movement patterns that were deliberately given a distinct name so that in a pinch, you could spit out two words and everyone knew exactly what it meant, what they had to do, etc... instead of trying to explain it over the radio in sentences while there were a million other things going.

I suspect fighter jets must have something similar as they do fly in formations... and if we had any ships I can't imagine they would just be sailing through the ocean without any regard for where everyone else around them was.

 

[dimsum]

I care about the CAF. It bothers me that we are know as the poorest, fattest, most unprofessional looking military in a first world country. 

Ok, hold on.  Who is saying this?  Have a bunch of foreign military folks outright said it, or is it just perception (warranted or not) of them doing that?  I've worked with a bunch of "first-world" militaries and I've learned that a) we all have our issues and b) we are our own worst critics of our issues. 

We as Canadians have this self-deprecating thing down too well.  In most circumstances it makes us sound humble and modest, which is a good thing, but when we have this mentality of shouting how crap we are from the rooftops, it makes us sound whiny (this also coming from a foreign officer I worked with). 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

... and if we had any ships I can't imagine they would just be sailing through the ocean without any regard for where everyone else around them was.

We do have that, Ballz. We, in fact, have a whole set of pubs that teach us the various movements and duties expected of us when sailing in formed groups. It's called fleet manoeuvering, and we practice the most common ones (formations 1 through 12, reversing from the rear, turns and wheels, angled formations and search turns) all the time in what we call "Officer-of-the-watch manoeuvers" so they become second nature.

And yes, it is like drill movements but with ships and you can tell from the vocabulary used that its fundamentals came from marching drill somehow.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

We do have that, Ballz. We, in fact, have a whole set of pubs that teach us the various movements and duties expected of us when sailing in formed groups. It's called fleet manoeuvering, and we practice the most common ones (formations 1 through 12, reversing from the rear, turns and wheels, angled formations and search turns) all the time in what we call "Officer-of-the-watch manoeuvers" so they become second nature.

And yes, it is like drill movements but with ships and you can tell from the vocabulary used that its fundamentals came from marching drill somehow.

I can't speak for the Fighter community, but the LRP community also has many "drill-like" procedures so we can do specific things at specific times in a specific order in the event we are under EMCON, as an example, and have to communicate with an aircraft that is replacing us.  These are extremely important from a tactical AND safety-of-flight perspective.  We have drills (procedures, checklists, CMIs)  on the aircraft for what to do if say, there is smoke in the cabin or flight deck or certain indicators are presenting on the RADAR system...stuff like that.

I don't want to be teaching someone the basics of the importance of why they need to 'react to the word of command' during a cabin fire on flight training.  I want them to have the discipline before they put a flight suit on. 

That trg has to start somewhere (Basic) and should be done using a very simple, cost effective and easy to monitor/assess method, and performed primarily by NCOs.  Kit and quarters and drill have been used for this, extremely successfully, for decades upon decades.  Why fix something that isn't broke?

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Oldgateboatdriver]We, in fact, have a whole set of pubs that teach us the various movements and duties expected of us when sailing in formed groups. It's called fleet manoeuvering, and we practice the most common ones (formations 1 through 12, reversing from the rear, turns and wheels, angled formations and search turns) all the time in what we call "Officer-of-the-watch manoeuvers" so they become second nature.
[/quote]

That sounds pretty awesome but why do we do that? Is is like an infantry section or platoon adopting different formations on the move where the ships are adopting to different formations against threats or protecting different ships?