Dress and Deportment

[TCBF]

" Yes, it looks like crap, but it's the best winter jacket we've got and a darn sight less socially insulting that wearing a greatcoat with a kilt.  You look like a bloody flasher!"

Only if you take your shoes off.  ;D

But, from 7 Jan 1971 until we got issued "CF Greens" in the Fall of 1973, I wore Battledress and a kilt, with a greatcoat made in 1950.  Worked fine.  I sure wish I'd kept the greatcoat.  Nothing wrong with the new one, I like it better than the Swinex Parka I bought in Pet, back in 1977, for $39.95.

As for OG 107 Goretex vs CADPAT.  I was posted ERE (IR) last summer, and shortly after the Regt got the CADPAT Jackets and stuff.  I still wear green heavy clothing with my CADPAT.  Half of Wainwright is in the same boat. 

Tom

 

[Haggis]

In the now-locked "Prohibited Boots" thread, Meridian asked:

"I wondered about that Haggis because I remember reading an NCR joining instructions type sheet that clearly outlined that DEU's were the Dress of the day every day for WOs & O's.

But I still see Officers in CADPATall the time... (although it is moreso junior NCMs)... does the instruction not apply to Reserve officers on posting or something of that nature (im talking daytime here, not Evenings while people are on their way to the armoury)"

Meridian:

The answer is that this order only applies to NCR units under command of CFSU (Ottawa).  It does not apply to units of 33 CBG, the Communication Reserve or Naval Reserve.  They are under command of thier respective Enviornmental Commanders (LFA/LFCA for 33 CBG for example).  If an officer or WO is on an attach posting (either Reg F or Reserve) to an NCR unit, s/he should be wearing DEU on a daily basis.  Exceptions are made, but they are rare.

TCBF:

Until we get everyone into CADPAT and ICE  and all the other CTS goodies, we're going to look like a 3rd world horde in field kit.

NDHQ, like any multi service HQ, looks like a walking garage sale with its plethora of uniforms and orders of dress.  Ever been to the Pentagon?  Same thing... except fitter  ;D

 

[TCBF]

Sounds like Kandahar. All of the "Rakasans"in the 101st (including the Canadians) dressed alike, mostly, but all of the 'operators' were models in a gigantic military fashion show.  There were guys whose probably only  purpose in life was to burn cut down 45 gal drums half filled with JP8 and excrement, and they dressed like they worked for the CIA.

Tom

 

[Meridian]

  Ever been to the Pentagon?   Same thing... except fitter   ;D

Oh God yes. I haven't been to the Pentagon, but I have been to NDHQ, and see the officers all over the place. (If you've ever been to ottawa on a weekday, its hard to avoid). I do not understand why a posting to the "Puzzle Palace" equates to "I have a guaranteed med chit precluding me from ever working out"

To be honest, the worst case of this was CIC; when I was at CFSJ in St-Jean, we had officers doing the MTAP (I think thats the acronym) language courses from all over NATO and eastern europe.  We'd have CIC training weekends where the CIC's would come and do seminars and the like (I dont really know what), and the foreign officers would just look appalled at all these canadian uniformed people who were overweight and looking like bags of -----. 

We had to explain to these officers that indeed the CIC were not Regular or even Reserve force personnel, and basically, CIC got explained as being babysitters of kids in uniforms (whether this was a correct description or not, when you are pissed off about being lumped in with a bunch of fattys, you say anything).


This all led to the question of why CIC doesnt have its own DISTINCTIVE uniforms.

 

[Jason Bourne]

Strange that CIC's would come up....I was told not to salute them around the base when I did see one...

Jason

 

[Neill McKay]

We had to explain to these officers that indeed the CIC were not Regular or even Reserve force personnel, and basically, CIC got explained as being babysitters of kids in uniforms (whether this was a correct description or not, when you are pissed off about being lumped in with a bunch of fattys, you say anything).

This all led to the question of why CIC doesnt have its own DISTINCTIVE uniforms.

Almost as if a variation on Godwin's Law, it seems as though nearly every thread on Army.ca sooner or later devolves into someone complaining about the CIC.

To address two points you've raised:

CIC officers are reserve force personnel.  Everyone in the CF is either in the regular force or the reserve force (there being no special force in place at the moment).

Why no distinctive uniforms?  I would suggest simply that there's no compelling reason to have them, and if there were, it would have to be balanced against the enormous cost of designing, producing, stocking, and distributing them.  How would we justify such an expenditure?

 

[Neill McKay]

Strange that CIC's would come up....I was told not to salute them around the base when I did see one...

Jason

Bad advice, I'm afraid -- you salute all commissioned officers of higher rank than yourself, regardless of branch or element.

 

[Haggis]

Bad advice, I'm afraid -- you salute all commissioned officers of higher rank than yourself, regardless of branch or element.

Quite true.

An officer is an officer and, as holders of the Queen's Commission, they are all entitled to a salute, whether we like it or not.  If it makes you feel better, just remember that you are paying compliments to the Commission, not the holder. ;D

 

[Haggis]

Ah, actually you are paying compliments to the trust and confidence shown in the officer by the Monarch.

....who grants a Commission to said officer as a mark of that trust and confidence.  Semantics aside, you are not saluting the holder.

 

[TCBF]

I salute the holder.  I just actually begin to enjoy it when they truly deserve it, as - in all fairness - most do.

Tom

 

[Haggis]

Tom:

Agreed.  Some don't.... most do.  In those cases it makes me feel a bit better to know, deep down, that I'm paying my compliment to the Monarch.  Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing particularly when no one knows you've chosen.

 

[Meridian]

Almost as if a variation on Godwin's Law, it seems as though nearly every thread on Army.ca sooner or later devolves into someone complaining about the CIC.

To address two points you've raised:

CIC officers are reserve force personnel.  Everyone in the CF is either in the regular force or the reserve force (there being no special force in place at the moment).

Why no distinctive uniforms?  I would suggest simply that there's no compelling reason to have them, and if there were, it would have to be balanced against the enormous cost of designing, producing, stocking, and distributing them.  How would we justify such an expenditure?

Lt: I knew someone would bring up the "we are part of the reserves" argument. But in a practical discussion with foreign service "fighting" personnel, trying to explain why a certain group of Canadian Military personnel were significantly overweight, you generally try and segement the groups. CIC AFAIK does not have the same physical fitness standards as the forces (and lets not get even started on the average standards amongst the forces as a whole).

The worse point was that obviously all these pers were officers... which is even more interesting to explain to a WO from Estonia, or a SGT from Russia.

They brought up the idea of seperate uniforms, noting that a cap badge is minimal identification wise, and few CIC actually wear "CIC" rank flaps.  The argument here was that CIC officers are, in fact, quite different in their roles and responsabilities as compared to Regular and Reserve "nonCIC" pers... 

I agree that there is validity to the financial implication argument, as well the argument that they are representing their individual branches of service.

Personally I guess my preference would be to see CIC having its own branch.

 

[Neill McKay]

Personally I guess my preference would be to see CIC having its own branch.

Then this is your lucky day: the CIC is in fact a branch.  That's why you usually see "CIC" on the army types' slip-ons (but not on naval or air force pers. because neither element wears its branch in that way -- all branches wear the generic "Canada" slip-ons).

 

[Meridian]

Ok... Its own component then.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I guess what I don't understand is why the CIC officers don't wear the same uniforms as the cadets.  That way they would be more like all other officers in all other parts of the CF.  Except for rank badges and odd bits of braid there's not too much difference between the uniforms worn by, say, Gen Hillier and a trooper in the RCD or between Adm Buck and the petty officer clerk who works in the outer office.  Why do CIC officers wear uniforms which differ, quite markedly, from those worn by cadets?

 

[Jungle]

I agree with Mr Campbell. A change of uniform, and of status, should be envisaged. There are no advantages in having the CIC as part of the CF.
Now regarding the fatties, it is not only a problem in the CIC; it is a problem throughout the CF. Some people invariably go see the doctor to get issued a chit at the first sign of the CF EXPRES. A lot of people in the CofC simply ignore the person and do not bother to follow up. People avoiding the CF EXPRES should be booked on a new test ASAP after the excuse period expires. If they are excused again, then they should be put on a temp med category. Should this carry on, they should be put on a permanent med cat and released.
If we were more serious about our standards, we would have less problems.

 

[a_majoor]

Of course, if no uniforms were made or issues with large waist bands, then a lot of the fitness problems would also be identified  ;D

 

[Jungle]

... then issue ALL fatties with maternity uniforms.  >

 

[pbi]

If we were more serious about our standards, we would have less problems.

This is the problem, right here. We're not always willing to do the work to make these people play the game. If they try to get out of BFT or Expres by getting a chit, then make sure you a) examine the chit to see that they really have one; and b) what other types of physical exercise they can still do. Then, wait out the duration of their chit and test them again. If another chit appears, get them assessed for their medical fitness to stay in the forces. If they fail the test, start the remedial program. If they fail the remedial program, its either a medical problem (see above) or its a performance problem in which case you start the RW/C&P route as fitness is a valid requirement of the service. The problems with this are a) it takes time and energy; b) the slackers will start squeaking about harassment and grievances, which tends to scare us away (it shouldn't, if we're right...); or c) they can point to any other number of slobs (usually senior to them in rank) and ask "what are you going to do about him?"

We are our own worst enemies. To me, greater self pride and less welfare mentality amongst some people in the military would also reduce the numbers of unfit and grossly overweight people we have.

Cheers.

 

[Meridian]

Not to keep harping on CIC, but are they exempt from EXPRES and BFT?