DP3B Rant

[Teddy Ruxpin]

The problem is that there is a Reserve constituency looking to have their cake and eat it too.  There are constant calls (mainly amongst the "oldsters") for high-tech equipment to be issued to the P Res, without realizing the accompanying training burden.  You can only do so much in two weeks and training a Coyote Surv Op, Eryx gunner, ROWPU operator or HLVW PLS driver in that time just isn't going to happen (no matter what innovative distributed training solutions are employed).  Yet there are constant calls for Reservists to be issued this type of kit.

I still feel as I felt years ago.  If a Reservist has the time, he/she should get as much training as the system can give him/her - including Regular Force courses.  Any training we can give our people is a good thing.  However, for the "traditional" Reservist, we need to concentrate on basic skill sets that allow that person to be mobilized and given additional training if required.  This essentially means, as was pointed out, that some Reserve courses have an asterisk beside them denoting a reduced training regime.  So what, as long as we all know what we're dealing with?

TR

 

[Gunner]

This essentially means, as was pointed out, that some Reserve courses have an asterisk beside them denoting a reduced training regime. 

Isn't that why there is an "R" in front of a Reservists MOC?  We have to break the stigma that equates being a Reservist with being inferior.  A functioning army consists of two components...

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Gunner:

I think we've agreed with each other, but am not sure!  ;D

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Oh, and I was wondering, Mr Dorosh, in the "real world" who does the majority of the instruction and support for these courses (including Reserve course)??? Feel free to come to Gagetown to teach on one. Or to Wainwright. Or Meaford. The welcome mat is out....

Allan

I was talking about changing the dates of the courses, not the instructors.  The Deputy Commander of LFWA was begging everyone in the Brigade to come out to Wainwright for two weeks this summer (that's a brigade of reservists in case you're not sure), any two weeks, we name the time, they'll accommodate, just please, please come out and we'll find work for you, guaranteed!

So I bet there will be one or two reservists this summer.

My words were poorly chosen, and since it is too late to go back and edit them - should have done so after Steel Badger's gentle reminder - I won't bother. 

to MarkC - I should not have made such a sweeping generalization.  There is enough stupidity to around both components.  I appreciate the detailed reply you made to this thread, however, it certainly clears up a lot of things, and was constructively worded to boot.

 

[ZipperHead]

I was talking about changing the dates of the courses, not the instructors.  The Deputy Commander of LFWA was begging everyone in the Brigade to come out to Wainwright for two weeks this summer (that's a brigade of reservists in case you're not sure), any two weeks, we name the time, they'll accommodate, just please, please come out and we'll find work for you, guaranteed!

How exactly are you going to change the dates to suit everybody? Change it to suit university students? Seasonal workers? Farmers? Bankers? IF you could get 2 people to agree on a suitable date (for anything) you're lucky. Try doing it for hundreds.

I don't like the thought of anybody "begging" people to come out to play, but I have a sneaky suspicion that it has to do with someone's PER and career progression ("the more people who show up, the better I look" vs the requirements of the CF (Reserves included). Maybe I'm crazy, but a commander should order people to show up, or make them want to show up: with the Reserves, option A is a no-starter, option B is doable, but costs money, and a commitment on many people's part (scheduling good employment, or trg, or whatever).

Isn't that why there is an "R" in front of a Reservists MOC?  We have to break the stigma that equates being a Reservist with being inferior.  A functioning army consists of two components...

It's all well and good to put an R in front of an MOC, but when a course report for a course (Reserve TP & QS) is given, it doesn't have an R in front of the qualification, so when a Reservist comes over to the Regs, it is ASSUMED that if they are qualified, say, SQ or Coyote Gnr, they are qualified to the same (CF) level as Private Bloggins. I know that I take a Reservists qualifications with a healthy dose of pessimism, until I can determine if they were "really" trained to the same level as a Reg Force soldier (which, based on some of the soldiers I've seen over the last few years come down the pipeline, I shudder to think of anyone being inferior or less trained than some of them).

I know I have a personal problem with the Reserve system, more out of resentment towards the somewhat cavalier attitude given about qualifications and promotions, that are based on unit, not Corps wide, needs, compared to our system, where you are in competition with all soldiers from your MOC across Canada. If the standards aren't the same, then the rank structure should show it (ie. a Reserve Sgt is NOT the same as a Reg F Sgt, in all regards: pay, respect shown, scales of punishment, messing, etc). I know that will cause people to get their panties in a bunch, but it is a somewhat unofficial policy already (when I was a 27 year old Cpl and saw a 23 year old Res Sgt with half the time in and probably a quarter the experience that I had, I knew that I would be hard pressed to take that guy seriously). They are two separate (and unequal) components, and should treat them accordingly.

If the CF decides to get serious, and change the way things are done (more trg time given, press the gov't to force businesses to protect jobs (a la the US system), a promotion/advancement program more on par with Reg F requirements, a higher expectation of a commitment from Res personnel to show up for courses (in support of, or as a student) with some form of "punishment" given for repeated no-shows (other than having "No Desserts" stamped on their meal cards)), I will give more respect and credence to the rank and "alleged" qualification levels of Reservists, particularly those taking the easy direct entry route into the Regs (I have seen TOOOOOOOO many that come in as Cpl's (or higher), and are vastly inferior to a newly minted TQ3 (now DP1)). I have seen some come in that were very good to excellent, but those are what I would consider to be people who did well in spite of the reduced expectations of a Reservist.

Al

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The problem is that there is a Reserve constituency looking to have their cake and eat it too.   There are constant calls (mainly amongst the "oldsters") for high-tech equipment to be issued to the P Res, without realizing the accompanying training burden.  

And, I would imagine, a commensurate maintenance burden also, no?

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

That's for sure - all equipment has to be in Class S (although the standard has varied lately), which means complete maintenance checks on both end, not to mention the burden on the units coughing the equipment up.  I remember one summer (in the 90s) we tasked 700 rifles to Wainwright for the anticipated massive influx of QL2 trainees.  Guess where they came from?  Yup - 41 CBG units.

TR

 

[Brad Sallows]

>How exactly are you going to change the dates to suit everybody?

You can't.  Bear in mind the topic was opened with a comment about small shifts in course dates.  Let's be clear about that.  This specific problem affects a number of people every year.  Of those, some have no flexibility - if vacation or unpaid leave was booked three or more months in advance (generally, February) when the courses were first announced, they use it as scheduled irrespective of whether or not the CF employs the member because a couple of weeks prior to the date the member's manager either will not or literally can not rejuggle the schedules.  My guess is that a junior employee in most sectors gets two, or perhaps three weeks of vacation per year.  So, when the course shifts (or is cancelled, for that matter), you better drag out that BBQ or hit the lake and make the most of it.  On the bright side, at least it's paid vacation.  Now ponder the person who took unpaid leave - two weeks (perhaps more) without pay, and no CF pay to compensate.

However, it should be noted that recently (and hopefully still) it became a matter of policy (I don't know how widespread) to find and offer alternate employment to the member in lieu of courses/taskings cancelled at short notice.  The financial hardship was addressed.

 

[westie47]

I see my rant had the desired effect.  Firstly I was talking about DP3B, which is run every year not one of a dozen BMQ's.  I have been around long enough to understand why BMQ/SQ type courses get cancelled but the senior courses are different as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't be upset if it was cancelled but why move it up 2 weeks? Probably to allow the students to instruct afterwards. Now I would love nothing better than to take reg force courses.  In fact my JLC/JNCO was 13 weeks at WATC with all reg instructors, and I'm glad as we had to earn our pass. My Small Arms Course was in WATC as well but the same standards applied (reg instructors).  I know there are alot of Mo' guys that want to get the maximum for minimal output. I don't believe in that.  I think we promote to quickly, I think our system is f****d up. If I had my way it would take 4 years to get Cpl in the reserves as well (as an example). I realize that they are hurting for instructors at WATC, now I get a certain amount of time I can take. Should I use that for courses or instructing. Believe me I have spent many a summer teaching so I figure I've done my time. If I was unemployed or in school, then I'd be right there. It's not that bad in WATC.  Anyway, I've been lobbying to get advanced courses for years but they won't offer them to us. I'd willingly take more time off to take the Advanced Patrol Course or Urban Ops Instructor but they are reg only. If you guys close them to us how do you expect us to get as qualified? Another example is Small Arms, we didn't get taught templating because "we will never do it" that's the RSS/Reg force job. I WANT to do the same courses as do any of the Reserve NCO's worth their salt. Anyway food for thought.

 

[ZipperHead]

Westie, it's good to see that there are people who actually WANT to get trained. It's been my experience of late that within my organization (Armour Corps), many  people are averse to take any form of training, unless it's a swan. Especially with the shift away from the tank to the Coyote, everybody has to be retrained (well, not everybody, but our trg has shifted from tank-centric to recce-centric, and that has left a lot of people in the lurch). Our RSM and Comdt were students on the 25mm gnry and undertook Surveillance trg, just so they could be up on the new equipment. Too many people, at all rank levels, are avoiding the transformation like the plague. We had 2 "soldiers" in the School who tried to fail the Surv Op course because they didn't want to be "slave ops" (as we call them). If I had my way, they would have been released.....

People like doing what is comfortable for them, and learning new ways is too much to ask, I guess ("can't teach an old dog new tricks...").

A lot of what you mentioned (about wanting to learn certain things, but being denied) rings true throughout the CF. It seems that every school wants to teach to the TP and QS only, pass the PC (I've heard where people will only teach what is needed to pass the PO Check and nothing more), and that's that. Well, it's nice to pass a course with the basics, but if you can learn more (particularly advanced, realistic stuff) why not. Well, that costs money (sometimes), and some people (read: some instructors) don't have the knowledge and/or experience to teach any more than the basics, so that's where it ends. Luckily, there seems to be a groundswell of people coming into the training establishments who are enthusiastic about teaching and bring a lot of experience with them. Now, if they'd only give us more trg days and money (and servicable kit, and trg aids, and resources, and, and, and.......)

Al

Al

 

[BKells]

Hey, this is what I can say. I'm a new private in my infantry reserve unit. This is my first summer coming up and I'm available full tiem for four months. I'm ready to do any training they want to throw at me and taskings, plus Stalwart.. just give me the employment. They won't give me anything I'm afraid. I'll probably get my MOC training and that's it, and probably in the middle of the summer to screw me out of a civvie job and end up broke.

 

[Garett]

Other then me working at the Infantry School, Mark C was right.

In my opinion, I've seen improvements in the training system since Jan 04 when I started working at AATC.  Examples:

SQ- Taught GPS when the troops didn't know how to use a compass.  GPS was training was lessened for more map and compass.
-This time last year; section attacks, recce patrols and Pl sized defensive.  Now (at AATC) all that plus VCP's, Urban Ops (attack / defend / patrol), Convoy Ops other stuff and this Spring/Summer (if I get my way) Simunition will be used on some training.

PLQ- This time last year they still had the PLQ Land + Inf 2A + Inf 2B = MCpl.  Now it is Inf 2A + PLQ Inf.  Before, no Urban Ops.  Now Urban Ops, more fighting patrols better defensive stuff (delay instead of deliberate).  We did a full day of Simunition training in the new Urban Ops site in Gagetown, we had 5000 rounds and could only shoot 3000 because we ran out of daylight.  We did a full day of Urban Attacks in Austere Village yesterday.  I sent out every section on an Urban Presence Patrol last night.  They had to do Snap VCP's, Cordon and Knock/Search and deal with belligerent locals.  All En Force only spoke French, Ptl Comds had to deal with them through an attached interpreter.

etc............


Improvements in training take time, before improvements are made at the unit level the leadership has to be trained up on all the latest and greatest.  Also, Bn, Coy and Pl Comd's plus the Ops and Trg staff have to WANT to do good training.  If they don't WANT to do it because they're LAZY or would rather spend the budget on Mess Dinners then the troops get screwed.


Not to toot my own horn, but I came up with a lot of stuff on my own or in co-ordination with my staff.  It  wasn't in the TP but we made it work.  Example, Section sized recce ptls that have to select and mark a firebase posn, assault posn and LD; The presence ptls I referred to, training with Simunition.

 

[xFusilier]

All En Force only spoke French, Ptl Comds had to deal with them through an attached interpreter.

That's one of the better ideas I've heard in a long time...almost a thing of beauty in its simplicity (wondering why I never thought of it myself).

 

[Highland Laddie]

Some great insight and points on this thread, particularly from Mark C & Allen L! I'm surprised PBI has spoken on this yet, as he usually has some very good points on these issues.

I think some of our Reg Force partners will be happy to know that many of us Reservists share the same concerns. I fully understand where you folks are coming from, and if any one from the Reserve world has not said this lately: Thanks. You guys (and girls) bust your butt to help us out and train us, while also giving up leave time, family time etc, all between your 5th tour of Bosnia and second or third tour of the 'Stan. Once again, thanks, your efforts are truly appreciated.

Many of us in the Reserve world are also frustrated with the consistently changing training structure, course dates, course material, doing more in less time, etc. One of my more interesting observations over the past couple of years as a Coy 2 I/C is that many of the pers who could not make the time for training under the 'old' system (ie QL3 Inf course full time for the summer / Phase II & III over two summers), are also the same pers who have problems committing to courses under the new modularized system. The net gain for the Reserves of this new system is questionable. The modularized system also creates a bit of an administrative & planning problem in the Coys & units (at least from my Inf perspective). Under the old system you could point to any QL3 Inf soldier and point to any weapon system in the Coy, and say "Hldr Jones, man the C-9 / Gustof / 60MM / GPMG". Now under the new modularized system its an admin burden - SQ can only do this, BIQ can only do that , IPSW are the only pers for the C-6, etc - and it gets more interesting for Pl / Coy live fire, MILCONs etc. But, in the big scheme of things, this is minor to some of the challenges faced by the Regs. In my mind, bring back the old QL3 / ISCC / Phase systems of training, and live with the limitations of that system. In our present system, I think the 'cure' is worse that the original problem(s).

I also know that many Reservists like myself recognize the difference in experience levels between Reg & Reserves, and have the greatest respect for what you guys do. When the Regs are around, I know myself and many others shut up and go into "observe / learn" mode, simply to learn from what you folks have to offer. I have learned just as much listening to Reg Pte's & Cpl's as Capt's & WOs. Many of us are constantly picking the brains of our Reg force brethren, particularly the RSS attached to our units. Unfortunately not all Reservists are like that, and trust me, most of us would like to have 'a few words out back' with these individuals.

As for those Reservist who don't want to do training or show up for ex's: sort yourself out, or get out. That's my attitude. Our unit recently started punting out the "Tuesday night solider' (ie not courses or ex's) with a vengeance, as it should.

As for myself and others in the Reserves, particularly in leadership roles- its time to shut up and put up. Either your a complainer (part of the problem) or an enable for change (part of the solution). I've spent the past training year attached to Training Det as Course O for courses (BIQ & BMQ), and start DL for my course as a candidate next week (ATOC - Combat Arms here I come!). What motivates me (other than professionalism, pride, and a sense of duty) is TF 0308 - our Brigade's tasking of 250 pers for the 'Stan. Everything I do between now and then will be to get myself and others ready for that tour. Full stop.

Well my 2 cents - rant button off. Flame / comment away.

 

[JBP]

Westie, it's good to see that there are people who actually WANT to get trained.

You should see the guys in my Section on BMQ, we've only got 2 more weekends left of BMQ, then 4 weekends in a row of "Pre-SQ", everyone keeps asking our Sgt, "Will our home units be active? Will we get to go out into the field and train", I'll come join your unit if my unit doesn't do enough stuff..."?...

It seems that most of the guys I joined up with, including me, can't get enough of it. I'm not worried about our home unit (Lincoln and Welland Reg) because they're quite active, but some people will drive 45mins-1hr to have good, hard training!

There are those of us who didn't join for the money, because there certainly isn't much of that at our level! It's a nice bonus though...

Just an FYI...

 

[swanita]

I have always wanted to broach the "same....but different" approach to the courses (I taught an SQ course, and when I looked at the difference in trg time spent by Reg F vs Res for the same thing I nearly shat myself..... not the same thing at all, but it ends up on paper as the same). I think we all realize that the Reserve world has less time avail for a course, but in this day and age, we can't pretend that Reservists show up with their horse, musket and a thirst to learn, and be stamped "good to go" in 2 weeks.

It's either all or nothing, or everything that comes out of the Reserve system will have to have an asterisk beside it, because, at the end of the day, it isn't the same. ENthusiasm is one thing, but you can only drink so much out of the firehose......

But what do I know.....

Al

As a reservist, I totally agree.  Our training isn't the same, & quite honestly it shouldn't be absolutely identical.  The simple fact of the matter is that the Reg force guys are the "experts", if you will, of their trade. They constantly train to learn & improve everything involved with their job.  As for the reservists, it's obviously a different world & some people expect too much to happen too soon in too little time.  We should do what we can, and learn when we can from our reg force counterparts.

 

[timstec]

I was on that 2005 PP3B course! The Defence phase was just BRUTAL!! Good, wet, and cold times!! Got to love CFB Gagetown.