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DP3B Rant

westie47

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I'm going to go on a bit of a rant here, so bear with me. I'm sure I'll get some appropiate responses as well....

I was slated to go on DP3B(6B) this year in Gagetown, as I work for the Federal Gov't (Corrections) I had to get the time off. I used some of my holidays as well as Military Leave Without Pay (MLWOP) to cover the time. No biggy, just get a letter from my CO, beg my Warden/CCO, and it's off to the races. You see it happens to come in the high season for annual leave so management doesn't really like people leaving, too much OT is incurred. So anyway, it's looking all set and I'm starting my personal prep and I am informed the dates changed, the course now starts two weeks earlier.

Now my rant is this, how come these guys can't get their **** together and organize these courses. This is Gagetown after all and this course happens every year. I get told, "...just change your leave days..."  Well that is easier than it seems. Sometimes I think that the Reg guys think we are just sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring, well I work a full time job, have a family and still am able to make about 90-95% of training including Cougar Salvo. I also use up alot of my annual leave, sick days and family related leave for the army. It's my choice and I'm not looking for any pats on the back. It's just that when I commit, I commit. So I think it's only fair that they commit to me.

I ask you, is that too much to ask?
 
westie47 said:
I ask you, is that too much to ask?

Nope, and guess what? It happens every year. We've addressed it a million times and they keep doing it, and it's not just the Infantry. Almost like they want you to miss it after your Unit commits to it. They keep the money and don't have to teach you. Every year they say it won't happen again, but it does. More belt fed, full auto c**k. On the bus, off the bus.
 
This goes with the thread about Reserves commiting to training in Wainwright.  We wonder why the Reserves are dying out west...
 
Dean, BRUTAL..........You gonna be able to swing it?

I feel your pain though. Happened to me 2 years ago, now look at me. The meds aren't working, the twitch in my left eye is back........

TM
 
Most of the guys that make these decisions have been in the Reg Force so long they don't even understand the challenges of co-ordinating time off for military training. 

Just like how Reserve units tend to schedule training right during exams.
 
The reserve training system is broken.  Period - end of story.  I've watched things go downhill for the last decade and some lonely nights wonder why we still have a semi-coherent reserve at all.  They pulled the same stunt for officer training a few weeks ago, with the result that we lost one of our candidates who could not change the dates with his employer either.  You think planning would be easy in the CF, seeing that we're fed planning principles with mother's milk, but apparently not.
 
Garett Hallman said:
Just like how Reserve units tend to schedule training right during exams.

And which exams would you like the reserve unit to avoid?  High school, university courses with one midterm, university with 2 midterms, technical schools, all of them?  As you can see, you can't avoid all of the exam periods.
 
Same everywhere. Add to that that coy has tentativelly cancelled the plan to teach BMQ,SQ, Driver wheel, QL3A/B all in a row for the new guys this summer. It was a nice plan, but a lot of people are gonna get screwed over bad if the courses are not thaught.

I'm sure there is good reasons why courses get cancelled, but mosts peoples schedules are not easely managable. Then they stress max attendance all the time. Hey, if you gave us a date and stuck to it, we would show up.
 
We had a Brigadier from, I believe LFWA, come to our Armouries last month, gathered us around like Monty, sat us all down crosslegged on the parade square, begged us to commit to training this summer then took questions.  About a dozen Highlanders highlighted the need for co-ordination of summer training, and he came right out and said the same thing - its broken.  His exact word was "bullshit."  "We're working on it" he said and acknowledged its been said before.  The multi-week courses, the changing of dates, the whole thing.

I was tempted to ask that if we've had a Militia presence in Calgary since 1910 and they STILL can't get it right, what chance do they have of ever doing so? 

One of the bones of contention was of course the way the junior leadership course(s) are laid out now - it was bad enough when it was just two or three blocks - I knew guys that had to repeat Block 1 one or more times because so much time elapsed after they took it.

Very silly stuff, and all apparently designed by Regular Force guys who have not lived in the "real world."

So rant away, but you're preaching to the choir.
 
Addendum to Mike's last post.....

Some of those involved in making a complete and Godless stromash of the reserve training system are not our regular bretheren (who do contribute some great ideas to solving the issue)...but our own....reservists who have some how become unhinged and lost all touch with the current reality of reserve service....

SB
 
Very silly stuff, and all apparently designed by Regular Force guys who have not lived in the "real world."

It's nice to see that the Reg Force isn't exempt from some some good old bashing for a change. The Reserves and Cadets had the monopoly on being on the receiving end for so long......

Not that I will defend the seemingly endless arbitrary changes to course dates, as it never effects us (Reg Force) in the least. That was sarcasm, for the uninitiated. We have had guys come off of tour to go on a course, spend minimal time with their family, fly out to the course, and then find it was cancelled, delayed, or
pushed up, and had to race to play catch up. Things are tough all over. I watched a lot of good Reservists get disenchanted with the way the Army is in '96 in the workup to going over to Bosnia, when a whole whack of guys were cut from the tour after 2 months of trg, and giving up schooling, family time, work, etc, because a bean-counter decided that we could do more with less, so guess who the majority of the guys were?

One of the biggest factors that I have seen (from my perspective at the Armd Sch) for the everchanging course dates comes for Kingston. The courses are getting shorter and shorter (but the content remains constant, or increases...... teach more, in less time), and there is no extra time given for mandated things like PT. We do PT at 0600, and train until 1700 (in garrison). There are no (or very few) admin periods. The course I am instructing on now will have had X2 12 day work weeks during it (weekends) so that the course doesn't run longer than neccesary. The SSM's course here runs 6 days a week to accomodate Reservists, so they are gone from home for the shortest period possible.

Oh, and I was wondering, Mr Dorosh, in the "real world" who does the majority of the instruction and support for these courses (including Reserve course)??? Feel free to come to Gagetown to teach on one. Or to Wainwright. Or Meaford. The welcome mat is out....

Allan
 
To add my 2 cents, perhaps to balance things out here, not all the blame can be directed at "the system" or the Regular Force.  Frankly, there are enough Reservists involved in the training system that to blame one element is ridiculous.

Furthermore, in my experience (admittedly dated), the Reserve Force doesn't help things much.  In the days of yore, all the Reserve formations were required to submit estimates of course attendance so that serials could be built.  Instructors were then requested against those serials, as was huge amounts of equipment (this is the part I dealt directly with).  Unfortunately, the "requirement" was often massively inflated, sometimes due to over optimistic recruiting projections or to "keep" vacancies until the last minute.  The result?  Course serials that don't meet minimal load that get cancelled - sometimes with short notice as it is realized that the students aren't going to show up to meet minimum load requirements.  Again, the caveat is that my knowledge on this subject is dated.

Complicating this is the fact that summer serials often rely heavily on Reserve instructors and getting instructors has proven increasingly difficult.  Part of the reason why is a systemic change that has (or so I'm told) precluded full summers of employment for Reserve junior leaders (a huge mistake IMHO).  As a result, the system is forced to try and task Regular Force instructors - again at the last minute.  Because the Regular Force is tapped out (due to national commitments), instructors may not be available and a course could well be cancelled due to lack of instructors.

Is it a s**t sandwich?  Yup, but everyone gets a bite...

Again, my 2 cents...

TR
 
Good points Teddy. I was going to bring up the point about the inflated course numbers, only to watch 2 people show up (I was a driver on a course like that.... 17 staff (including Reservists), 2 students). That was in the bad old days, but I doubt things have changed that much.

I vaguely recall a senior officer (Col) making noises a few years back, saying that if "you" (Reservists) won't support your own courses, "we" (Reg F) won't run them. That was a hollow threat if I ever heard one....

The blame game is fun to play, but nobody really wins....

Al
 
I have to agree with Allan Luomala on this one....

It is easy to blame the "Army Training Establishments" for changes in Res F course dates, seemingly endless amendments to the TSs and TPs, "Mods in/Mods out" changes, etc, etc.  And certainly, at the end of the day the Regular Army in the form of LFDTS bears some responsibility for this fluid (and therefore difficult to cater to) situation.  But at the same time, having served on both sides of the fence as have other members here (PBI by all means speak up), this is not in the least a one-sided situation.

The brutal truth of the matter is that the Res F senior leadership bear equal responsibility for whatever "heart-ache" that hopeful summer trainees are currently enduring.  First and foremost, the semingly ceaseless "module" adjustments for both officer and NCM professional development training most often occur at the behest of the Reserve Force.  Not all, but most.  Where the PLQ is concerned, some of the grief is certainly due to the ongoing agony and resultant "negotiation" between the various factions of the "purple" versus "brown" verus "green" Army.  At the end of the day however, the modularization of training is a genuine effort on the part of LFDTS to cater to Res F needs while simultaneously preserving minimal training standards in accordance with a common training standard.  The Army Training Establishments (Inf Sch, Armd Sch, Arty Sch, Tac Sch) simply dance to the tune that LFDTS HQ directs.  

At the end of the day, we have all been down this road back and forth for more years that I can personally keep track of.  Does the Res F want the same standard and course-code?  Fine - the Reg F designs modular courses so that they can attain that standard (with "no train" limitations).  Does the Res F not want the same standard and course-code?  Fine - the Reg F designs Reserve-specific training courses.  The ongoing ACT Infantry Reserve Dismounted Company Commanders' Course that I teach every year would be a "non-total-force" case in point of a course that seems to work just fine for the Reserve Force.  The alternative to this "Reserve-specific" course would be to load Res F candidates on the annual Reg F "Combined Arms Team Commander Course".  And I am here to tell you that based on first-hand experience, any such initiative would be an utter and complete disaster for all concerned.  

At the end of the day, the Res F senior leadership needs to (finally!) decide what it wants/needs out of training courses.  The endless cries for "training equality without equitable training commitment" are complete and utter crap.  I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't work that way. "Less" truly does mean "Less".  You either commit to the time, or you have one of two choices -You can accept an identical standard with a reduced range of tasks/expectations, OR you can accept a lower standard across the full range of tasks/expectations

When my Training Establishment (the Army Tactics School) receives students for the annual ACT Infantry Course (eg. the Dismounted Company Commander's Course), the time available precludes us from teaching anything more than the most basic of dismounted tactics.  We are constrained by a 14-day window, of which 2 days are devoted to travel based on the average civilian holidays of Res F participants.  

Hey - genuine kudos for spending your annual holidays running up and down the Gagetown training area, but that doesn't change what I can and cannot achieve with the average Phase 3 Infantry-qualified Res F candidate in 12 training days.  The field-based company group-level curriculum is VERY basic, and most of the students seriously struggle with that.  I can not accomplish anything more advanced than the utter basics, and to be brutally frank, the average candidate couldn't handle anything more challenging.  Just ask any past graduate - they were maxed out, big-time.

The same applies to the Res F version of the ATOC (Army Tactical Operations Course) that the Tactics School runs every summer.  The average Res F candidate is an order of magnitude below the experience level of the average Reg F candidate, and it clearly shows.  And trust me, that isn't say much for either component....but I digress.

The Tactics School DS bend over backwards to address the experience and training "delta" of our annual Res F candidates, but it is a seriously uphill battle.  Do the Res F candidates leave better trained and more confident/competent that when they arrived?  Most assuredly.  That is our job.  But do they meet the same standard as their Reg F counterparts?  Not even close.  Yet both categories of student (by virtue of demands from the Res F senior leadership) receive the same qualification for having "attended" the identical training.  

Could someone please tell me just why it is that the Res F senior leadership insists upon ATOC participation in the first place?  The course curriculum is based on a mechanized Combat/Combined Arms Team, whereas the typical Res F candidate these days has no exposure (and no need for exposure) to mech operations.  Unfortunately, this fundamental disconnect means that the Res F candidates are studying and focussing on employment as Cbt Tm/CAT 2ICs, BCs, LAV Capts, etc, that they will NEVER exploit within their professional constructs.  The things that make you go "Hmmmmm.....".  And at the end of the day, the only conceivable reason for the mutual anguish that both the Res F ATOC students AND their Instructors endure is that some politically-motivated "Colonel Blimp" has arbitrarily insisted that all training be "equal".  Well sorry, but that sort of completely ludicrous and unsubstantiated justification for unwarranted (and inadvisable) training simply hurts everyone involved.  

The Res F ATOC students (quite understandably) end up WAY over their heads, and the Tactics School Directing Staff end up working themselves far beyond the call of duty to do the best that they can in the extremely limited time that they have allotted for instruction.  At the end of the day, this situation is equally unfair to both parties involved.

I could go on, but suffice it to say that the responsibility for ever-changing Res F course dates and training curriculum rests equally with their very own senior leadership.  Perhaps not knowingly, but the fact remains that every time some completely disassociated senior Reserve Force officer bangs his fist to make a point, the national training system attempts to accomodate his/her irrational whims in the interests of inter-component peace and good-will.  More often than not, this results in "trickle-down" changes that take effect to the utter detriment of all concerned.  

Don't believe me?  Here is an honest, non-confrontational challenge for any Reserve F senior Lt or Capt who thinks that the Reg F are "ruling the training roost".  By all means, please, PLEASE take 2 weeks this summer and get yourself loaded on one of the upcoming ATOC-Combat Arms P Res serials.  And when you're done learing all that you can cram into 2 weeks about the employment of a square combat team in conventional combat operations of war with an assessed focus on your commesurate role as a Combat Team 2IC, LAV Captain, Armoured Squadron 2IC, etc???   Well, then ask yourself just what (if anything) your 2 week summer vacation had to do with your future employment within your Reserve unit. And then ask yourself what your own senior Reserve Force Leadership is doing to you in the parochial interests of non-existent (and completely non-necessary!) "equality"......

Enough about "Res F summer training blame" for now.  I can go on (and on), if required/desired....

Cheers,

Mark C

Edited to add:

Garret Hallman, a Res F member of this board who has been employed as a DP1, DP 2 and DP 3 NCM Course Officer at the Infantry School for the past year can undoubtedly shed some light on the Res F course-scheduling issue.   Suffice it to say that "we/them" Regular and Reserve animosity does nobody any good and is entirely unwarranted.   Anyone who attends a training course at CTC Gagetown will find that the staff are totally (and I mean TOTALLY) committed to their success - assuming that the candidate has the requisite basic parts.   As far as course scheduling is concerned?   Well Garret can speak to the Infantry school situation.   Suffice it to say that the inavailability of increment staff (based on invariably inflated Res F expectations for course-loading) have a significant impact in terms of what is physically achievable.  

For my part, at the Army Tactics School I have a staff of 20 all ranks running 2 x PRes ATOC-Combat Arms Serials, 1 x ATOC-Combat Service Support, and 1x ACT Infantry serial during the coming summer.   Aside from the LCol Commandant, RSM,   myself (DCmdt), our C Sp, Ops/Trg O, 2 civilians, 3 Standards staff, and a support staff of 5 NCMs, we are left with a grand total of 5 Instructors.   Oh, but of course 2 of our 5 instructors are posted out this summer.   This leaves 4 instructors (one non-"indocrinated") to run 2 x serials of ATOC-CA (P Res), 1 x serial of ATOC-CSS (PRes) and 1 x serial of ACT-Inf.   Each course requires a Course Officer and 3 Directing Staff, not to mention the Ops/Adm support.  

Can you say "fully engaged in the interests of Res F training?   Can you say "no summer leave" (as usual) for the Tactics School?".   I knew you could.   We do this for a living, and by the time that most of us take leave every year, our kids are back in school due to the requirement to support Res F summer training.

All of that to say that whinging about scheduling changes or conflicts don't hold a lot of weight with those of us engaged full-time within the Army training system.   Changes don't occur on a "whim".   Changes to the Reserve Force Summer Course scheduling generally happen for one of 2 reasons:

1.   A lack of resources or staff - both of which were usually "promised" by the Res F but weren't counted upon because historical precedent strongly suggests that "self-support" is an abject pipe-dream, and

2.   A lack of Regular Force "backfill" augmentee staff.   The Field-Force is maxed-out for taskings 12 months out of the year.   And then we ask them to support (and more typically fill vacant) Res F instructor positions during the Summer months.   No offence, but I also need my time-off with my family - preferably when it isn't snowing outside.   Those of us who fill full-time training positions bend over backwards (and then some) to deliver the mandated Res F training at the expenses of our personal lives.   Yes, I know that the Res F candiates are on their holidays during summer courses.   And so should I be.   Lest the Res F folks forget, we get to teach the Regular Force throughout the rest of year.   At the end of the day, it is what it is - and we both get to suck it up.  

All of that to say that there are two sides to every coin.....   Don't like the course scheduling changes?   Suck it up, Buttercup.   Either that, or take off the uniform.   I'm not at all sorry to say that you will get no sympathy   from me.   I am not a "Reserve-Basher".   Indeed, some may be disappointed to hear that I was a Reserve NCM (Infantry Recruit to Sergeant) before I went full-time as an officer.   At the end of the day, you either adapt or overcome the circumstances.   If the the scheduling of training doesn't suit your needs, then you don't expect the rest of the world to tilt upon its axis to accommodate your specific needs.   You sort yourself out, or you move on.   Very simple, sorry to lose you, but no man/woman is irreplacable.   And that is the hard thruth.  

I for one refuse to be a Regular Force "victim" of implied "guilt" from the Reserve Force.   Not after everything that I have given up over the past 3 summers to specifically support Reserve officer training.   Anyone who tries to tell me that they have been "screwed" by the course-scheduling offered by CTC Tactics School is asking for a serious kick in the nads, full-stop.   There is NOTHING to complain about until such time as the Res F is capable of providing its own equivalent training.   Full-stop.

Sorry to sound a tad harsh, but there it is.   Nobody wins in terms of course scheduling, and everyone ends up sacrificing for the collective good.   Let's keep that in mind....

Cheers,

Mark C
 
Well said Mark. Your keyboard must be smoking after that one....  ;D

I have always wanted to broach the "same....but different" approach to the courses (I taught an SQ course, and when I looked at the difference in trg time spent by Reg F vs Res for the same thing I nearly shat myself..... not the same thing at all, but it ends up on paper as the same). I think we all realize that the Reserve world has less time avail for a course, but in this day and age, we can't pretend that Reservists show up with their horse, musket and a thirst to learn, and be stamped "good to go" in 2 weeks.

It's either all or nothing, or everything that comes out of the Reserve system will have to have an asterisk beside it, because, at the end of the day, it isn't the same. ENthusiasm is one thing, but you can only drink so much out of the firehose......

But what do I know.....

Al
 
Wicked rant, Mark! (all true too!)

Makes me miss the old LFWA days!  ;)  (Ok, maybe not THAT much!  LOL)


TR
 
MarkC, you can rant (and you know that I have) about Sr Reserve leadership but, at the end of the day, who runs the army?  

Suffice it to say that "we/them" Regular and Reserve animosity does nobody any good and is entirely unwarranted.

The crux of the matter is contained in this statement as it is not an we/them situation and it is only about the army as a whole.  I have stated before that if you want a Reservist to be a Regular, then you sign him up for a multiyear contract and train the heck out of him.  If it is not cost effective to do that, you have to develop a system that provides a mutually supporting capability within the army.  

The individual training system for the Reserves goes from one nightmare to another, year after year. Why can't it be sorted out? Why are the same problems that you experienced as G3 Indiv Trg the same (or worse) that we are experiencing now?

Finally, it was, as always, an excellent rant.
 
It's good to hear the complications from all perspectives so we can all include a reasonably full set of factors in our estimates, but at the end of the day the pre-eminent axiom is this: if Canada is to have reserve forces to any useful purpose, the CF must first and foremost accommodate civilian Canada.  If Canada settles for whatever part of civilian Canada can accommodate the CF then the reserves will rarely be more than a tool looking for a use, rather than a tool shaped with a use in mind.
 
Brad Sallows said:
if Canada is to have reserve forces to any useful purpose, the CF must first and foremost accommodate civilian Canada.

Why must the CF cater to the civillian world.  Why can't we pressure our MPs to lobby the government (while they are in a minority), to enact legislation that would give reservists the opportunity to take leave from work, with using up precious holiday time, annual leave etc., and have a job to come back to, so they could attend a full reg force course. 
 
Why can't we pressure our MPs to lobby the government (while they are in a minority), to enact legislation that would give reservists the opportunity to take leave from work, with using up precious holiday time, annual leave etc., and have a job to come back to, so they could attend a full reg force course. 

The problems with Reserve Force individual training are not solely focussed around legislation that would allow Reservists to take 2 weeks off per year for military training.  CFLC has done some good work convincing companies to voluntarily provide time off for their workers for training and international operations.  Why train a Reservist to Regular standards?  See my comments above, its not cost effective.
 
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