"Double Dippers" Mega Thread

[aesop081]

In my small corner of DND, it's still a rumour. 

Letter from the CDS on this was emailed around to us about a week ago. No rumour.

 

[bridges]

Letter from the CDS on this was emailed around to us about a week ago. No rumour.

I believe you... but if it's being sent to only some people, not others - then effectively, it is a rumour for the ones who haven't seen it.  This particular case has been all hearsay so far, on a pretty significant policy change.  This will affect everyone in DND in some way, not only annuitants - but them most of all.

Communication and situational awareness are great things.  I'm glad I can come to Army.ca for both, in these rare cases, but wish I didn't have to. 

 

[aesop081]

I believe you... but if it's being sent to only some people, not others - then effectively, it is a rumour for the ones who haven't seen it.

I didn't take a look to see how it was addressed. i do assure you that it exists.

This particular case has been all hearsay so far, 

PM me your work email if you wish and i will try and forward it to you tomorrow when i get to work, so that it is no longer "hearsay" as that ship has sailed over a week ago.

 

[Stoker]

I believe you... but if it's being sent to only some people, not others - then effectively, it is a rumour for the ones who haven't seen it.  This particular case has been all hearsay so far, on a pretty significant policy change.  This will affect everyone in DND in some way, not only annuitants - but them most of all.

Communication and situational awareness are great things.  I'm glad I can come to Army.ca for both, in these rare cases, but wish I didn't have to.

It is so much rumour in the naval reserve that no new contracts are being cut for annuitants until the exact details are released. Also any new IR is being halted until the budget is released.

 

[Aerobicrunner]

My understanding is that a individual drawing a 35 year pension would get the first year with both class B and pension; for year 2 and 3 they would be re-enrolled and receive their pay, and contribute 1% of earnings to the pension fund.

Sucks to be me.  But I do sympathize and see a point of view with reservists who meet the qualifying time to receive a pension, but are not allowed to release, reapply for a Cl B job and then also collect their pension like us in the Reg F could do.

 

[bridges]

I didn't take a look to see how it was addressed. i do assure you that it exists.

PM me your work email if you wish and i will try and forward it to you tomorrow when i get to work, so that it is no longer "hearsay" as that ship has sailed over a week ago.

Thank you kindly for the offer, but I think I'm getting it shortly, from another source.  Much appreciated, though.

I'm told verbally, through the CoC, that the implementation date is 1 Sep 12, and CANFORGENs will be coming out NLT 1 Apr 12.   

 

[bridges]

One wonders, will civilian employees be next?  Many of them are annuitants also.  That would have to be a government-wide change - but it is conceivable. 

In the meantime, I feel for the annuitants who will now have to cope with this, financially.  Not all of them are at highly-paid rank levels. 

 

[ModlrMike]

CFMG is going to take a kick in the nuts over this. They hired back a large number of PAs as Class B rather than pay the commercial rate. These folks will not stay if they see their pay reduced by 30-40K.

 

[armyvern]

CFMG is going to take a kick in the nuts over this. They hired back a large number of PAs as Class B rather than pay the commercial rate. These folks will not stay if they see their pay reduced by 30-40K.

So is the ARAF. 

If the CANFORGEN is the options detailed below, I'd be willing to flat out state right now that so will everyone else as Scenario 2, Option 2 is laughable -- at best.

Those ResF units who desperately require ex-Reg mbrs to pass on experience in one-of posns etc will suffer too. Quite frankly, I don't see any one of them continuing on to Option 2 so Units will dig for ways around that because they have to.

There will be those who get out, do the BClass and who will pay back into the pension during year 2 and 3, but if anyone thinks for a split second that they would ever consider working at "Option 2" after 3 years as a short-term B Class or as an A Class in a Res Unit and giving up their monthly cheque to do so ... they are dreaming. Hmmmm, 4 nights a month and a weekend with NO pension? Who the hell can live on that?

They'd have to then be collecting welfare from the taxpayer instead in order to opt for Option 2. Brilliant plan. Talk about robbing Peter to pay Paul. OR, they'd just say, "too bad" - I'll keep the pension cheque every month instead. So much for sharing their experience where it's needed.

I'll make another prediction right now too:

We are about to see an influx of postings for B Class contracts of 364 days in length. One guy "X" will work the job for 364 days, it'll sit vacant for a week, then another guy "Y" will fill the job for his 364 days, vacant for a week, guy "X" will then fill it again for 364, vacant a week, guy "Y" again, etc etc etc.

Actually, just for shits and giggles, I'm going to check the B Class listings tomorrow to see how many have already started looking for "364ers".

The only difference between my prediction above and the pulp and paper industry, is that the pulp and paper industry did this on 6 month cycles in my hometown: 1/2 the staff worked 6 months to make their pogey points, then got laid off for 6 months during which time they collected their pogey cheques while the other 1/2 worked to make their pogey points. Rotate, rotate, rotate.

Only, in the B Class sense, they work for 364 collecting pay & pension and then "rest" for the full year collecting pension only while other dude does his 364 collecting both followed by his year of rest.

Interesting times indeed.

 

[medicineman]

CFMG is going to take a kick in the nuts over this. They hired back a large number of PAs as Class B rather than pay the commercial rate. These folks will not stay if they see their pay reduced by 30-40K.

They also hired them based on PRes rates of pay too - no spec pay in the Reserve world for PA's because the trade doesn't exist as such (unless that's another BS story I got from PRL when I got out).  I suppose the pensions would even things out some, but I'm somewhat happier making more than my previous salary AND my pension on top of that, instead of just plain old breaking even...ish. 

MM

 

[ARMY_101]

Another announcement:

CANFORGEN 070/12 CMP 033/12 101602Z APR 12

CHANGES TO THE ADMINISTRATION UNDER CFSA PART 1 OF EMPLOYMENT OF ANNUITANTS IN CONTINUOUS RESERVE SERVICE
UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. CANADIAN FORCES MIL PERS INSTRUCTION 20/04

B. CDS LETTER 5323-1 (D RES) SERVICE BY CANADIAN FORCES SUPERANNUATION ACT PART 1 ANNUITANTS IN LONG-TERM FULL-TIME RESERVE POSITIONS, 5 MARCH 2012

C. VCDS LETTER MANAGEMENT FRAMEWORK - CFSA PART 1 ANNUITANTS - FULL TIME RESERVE SERVICE, 16 MARCH 2012




REF A IS THE CF POLICY AND PRACTICE FOR ADMINISTRATION OF RES F SERVICE. SECTION 2.13 OF REF A OUTLINES THE PRACTICE FOR CFSA PART 1 ANNUITANT SERVICE IN CLASS B AND C RES F POSITIONS. REF B COMMUNICATES A RECENT CDS DECISION AT ARMED FORCES COUNCIL TO CHANGE THE APPLICATION OF SECTION 2.13 IN REF A. EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 12, CFSA PART 1 ANNUITANTS WILL SERVE UNDER CONTINUOUS RES SVC AS SPECIFIED IN OPTION 2 OF SECT 2.13 OF REF A (OPTION TWO). REF B FURTHER OUTLINES THAT EXCEPTIONS TO THIS PRACTICE WILL BE MANAGED AND APPROVED THROUGH THE VCDS. REF C OUTLINES THE MANAGEMENT FRAMEWORK FOR GRANTING STATEMENTS OF UNDERSTANDING (SOU) UNDER OPTION 1 OF SECT 2.13 OF REF A (OPTION ONE)


IT IS RECOGNIZED THAT THIS CHANGE IN THE AVAILABILITY OF OPTION ONE FOR THE EMPLOYMENT OF CFSA PART 1 ANNUITANTS HAS THE POTENTIAL FOR SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON BOTH INDIVIDUALS AND UNITS. AS A RESULT, THE IMPLEMENTATION WILL BE IN MEASURED STEPS TO PROVIDE ADEQUATE TIME FOR BOTH THE CF AND AFFECTED MEMBERS TO PREPARE IN AN INFORMED MANNER AND THEN MAKE THE NECESSARY ADJUSTMENTS SO AS TO MITIGATE THESE IMPACTS TO THE EXTENT POSSIBLE


THIS CANFORGEN FIRST OUTLINES THE REQUISITE ADMINISTRATIVE PRACTICES SO AS TO ENSURE THAT ALL NEW RESERVE EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNTY MESSAGES AND SOU TERMS COMPLY WITH REFS B AND C DIRECTION. IT THEN INITIATES THE TRANSITION FROM AGREEMENTS THAT DETERMINE EMPLOYMENT OF CFSA PART 1, ANNUITANTS, NOW CARRYING OUT THEIR SERVICE ACCORDING TO AGREEMENTS UNDER THE TERMS OF OPTION ONE, TO NEW AGREEMENTS THAT WILL EMERGE UNDER THE TERMS OF OPTION TWO


NEW EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES. EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2012, ALL NEW RESERVE EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY MESSAGES FOR CLASS B AND C CONTINUOUS FULL-TIME RESERVE SERVICE AS WELL AS ALL SOU AND ROUTE LETTERS (RL) WILL BE WRITTEN IN ACCORDANCE WITH OPTION TWO


TRANSITION OF EXISTING SOU. FOR MEMBERS SERVING UNDER AN EXISTING SOU AS OF 1 APRIL 2012, THE CHANGES TO THEIR SOU AND RL TERMS WILL BE AS FOLLOWS:


SOU AND OR RL TERMS THAT COMPLETE ON OR BEFORE 31 AUGUST 2012. MEMBERS WHO WILL NOT HAVE ALREADY DONE SO AS PART OF THEIR CURRENT TERMS MAY TAKE AN OPTION ONE BREAK IN SERVICE AS PREVIOUSLY AGREED WITH THEIR CHAIN OF COMMAND AND IAW THEIR CURRENT SOU AND RL TERMS. UPON RETURN FROM THE BREAK IN SERVICE, THEIR SOU AND RL TERMS WILL BE CONVERTED TO OPTION TWO


SOU AND OR RL TERMS COMPLETE AFTER 31 AUGUST 2012. THE SOU TERMS OF AFFECTED MEMBERS WILL BE CHANGED TO CONFORM TO OPTION TWO EFFECTIVE 1 SEPTEMBER 2012 AND THEIR RL WILL BE AMENDED TO REFLECT THE SAME END DATE. THE DURATION OF THE NEW SOU WILL MATCH THE TIME REMAINING TO COMPLETE THE EXISTING SOU AND RL THAT ARE BEING REPLACED


PROCESS OF TRANSITION. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE CONVERSION TO NEW SOU TERMS IS CARRIED OUT ACCORDING TO PARA 5A OR 5B, COMMANDING OFFICERS OF UNITS THAT EMPLOY RESERVE FORCE MEMBERS ARE TO ENSURE THE FOLLOWING STEPS ARE TAKEN TO MANAGE THE TRANSITION:

(1) OFFER OF CHANGED SOU TERMS. MEMBERS WILL RECEIVE A WRITTEN OFFER OF THE NEW SOU TERMS

(2) MEMBER RESPONSE TO OFFER. MEMBERS WILL HAVE 30 CALENDAR DAYS TO ACCEPT OR REJECT THE NEW SOU

(3) ACCEPTANCE OF OFFER. MEMBERS SUBJECT TO PARA 5A ABOVE WILL START A NEW SOU UNDER OPTION TWO AND WILL HAVE UP TO ONE YEAR FROM THE START OF THE NEW SOU TO REJOIN THE CF PENSION PLAN. AS FOR MEMBERS SUBJECT TO PARA 5B ABOVE, THEY WILL START A NEW SOU UNDER OPTION TWO, AND WILL HAVE UP TO ONE YEAR, FROM WHEN THEY LAST STARTED FULL-TIME SERVICE, TO REJOIN THE CF PENSION PLAN

(4) REJECTION OF OFFER. MEMBERS WHO REJECT THE NEW SOU WILL HAVE THE TERMS OF THEIR CURRENT SOU AMENDED TO TERMINATE AT THE COMPLETION OF THEIR CURRENT RL. UPON COMPLETION OF THE AMENDED SOU, NORMAL PRACTICES AND OPTIONS FOR RELEASE OR OTHER RES F OPPORTUNITIES AS MANAGED BY THE CHAIN OF COMMAND WILL APPLY

(5) EXTENSION OF PERIOD OF RESPONSE TO OFFER. COMMANDING OFFICERS ARE AUTHORIZED TO EXTEND THE MEMBER S RESPONSE PERIOD BY UP TO 30 CALENDAR DAYS ON COMPASSIONATE GROUNDS OR FOR OTHER COMPELLING REASONS. ALL PARTIES MUST BE MINDFUL THAT THIS EXTENSION ONLY APPLIES TO THE PERIOD OF RESPONSE TO THE NEW OFFER AND DOES NOT EXTEND THAT OF THE EXISTING SOU. FAILURE TO INDICATE A DECISION WITHIN THE ORIGINAL OR EXTENDED PERIOD WILL BE DEEMED A REJECTION OF THE OFFER AND ADMINISTERED AS DETAILED AT PARA 5.C.(4)

(6) REQUEST FROM A MEMBER TO REJOIN THE CF PENSION PLAN. AT ANY TIME PRIOR TO ONE YEAR OF CONTINUOUS RESERVE SERVICE, A MEMBER MAY, IN HIS OR HER SOU, ELECT TO REJOIN THE CF PENSION PLAN. THOSE WHO ELECT TO DO THIS WILL RECEIVE A NEW SOU AND RL THAT ENTAIL NO BREAKS IN SERVICE AND THAT MATCH THE TIME REMAINING IN THE SOU IT REPLACES THEIR CURRENT RL WILL BE AMENDED WITHOUT BREAKS IN SERVICE FOR THE DURATION OF THE NEW SOU, WHICH BECOMES EFFECTIVE THE DATE OF THEIR REQUEST. THE UNIT OR PRL WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR INITIATING THIS RE-ENROLMENT AND PENSION BENEFITS TO THE MEMBER WILL CEASE UPON THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THE NEW SOU


DEEMING PROVISION. COMMANDING OFFICERS AND MEMBERS ARE REMINDED THAT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CFSA, THE RE-ENROLMENT INTO THE CF PENSION PLAN AFTER ONE YEAR OF CONTINUOUS RESERVE FULL-TIME SERVICE IS A DEEMING PROVISION. AS A RESULT, MEMBERS WILL BE DEEMED RE-ENROLLED REGARDLESS OF HAVING TAKEN ACTION TO RE-ENROL AND, BY LAW, THEY WOULD BE SUBJECT TO APPROPRIATE RECOVERY OF PENSION BENEFITS PAID AFTER ONE YEAR OF CONTINUOUS FULL-TIME SERVICE


ADMINISTRATION OF OPTION ONE. REF C OUTLINES THE MANAGEMENT FRAMEWORK THAT WILL SERVE TO APPROVE EXEMPTIONS WHERE OPTION ONE MAY BE USED. REF C PROVIDES THAT THE VCDS AUTHORIZES THE USE OF OPTION ONE AND SOUS AND RLS FOR OPTION ONE CAN ONLY BE ISSUED WHEN THE CORRECT L1 COMMANDER APPROVALS HAVE BEEN OBTAINED IN ACCORDANCE WITH REF C. EXISTING REF A PROCESSES APPLY WHEN THE LEVEL 1 COMMANDER MUST MAKE A DETERMINATION REGARDING WHETHER TO APPROVE A MEMBER S RESERVE SERVICE AND WITH RESPECT TO THE ADMINISTRATION OF THAT SERVICE


MEMBER RESPONSIBILITIES. ALL CFSA PART 1 ANNUITANTS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR LEARNING THEIR PENSION OPTIONS AS THEY ARE FOR THE EXERCISE OF THOSE OPTIONS


ADVICE FROM THE CF IS LIMITED TO RE-ENROLMENT TO THE PENSION PLAN PROCESSES AND THE ADMINISTRATION OF ASSOCIATED BENEFITS. AS OUTLINED IN REF A, MEMBERS ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO SEEK THE ADVICE OF FINANCIAL PROFESSIONALS TO HELP THEM UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR THEMSELVES AS WELL AS FOR THEIR FAMILIES BEFORE THEY MAKE ANY DECISION CONCERNING THEIR RE-ENROLMENT INTO THE CF PENSION PLAN. MORE INFORMATION REGARDING RE-ENROLMENT INTO THE CF PENSION PLAN MAY BE FOUND BY PHONING TOLL FREE AT 1-800-267-0325, OR AT 613-971-6012 FOR THOSE IN THE NCR, OR BY EMAIL AT PENSIONINQUIRIES (AT SIGN) FORCES.GC.CA


UNIT COMMANDERS AND MEMBERS ARE REMINDED OF THE PROVISIONS OF REF A, PARA 3.1 CONCERNING CLASS A RESERVE SERVICE


MORE SPECIFIC ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTION ON THIS TRANSITION WILL BE ISSUED IN SEPARATE CORRESPONDENCE. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WILL SOON BE PUBLISHED ON THE DGMC INTRANET AT HTTP://CMP-CPM.FORCES.MIL.CA/DGMC/ENGRAPH/DMCPG (UNDERSCORE) E.ASP OPENSUB 50, UNDER CAREER POLICIES. FURTHER QUESTIONS MAY BE ADDRESSED TO THE STAFF OF DIRECTOR MILITARY CAREER POLICY AND GRIEVANCES STAFF AT DWAN MAILBOX: PLUS DGMC ANNUITANT POLICY (AT SIGN) CMP DMCPG (AT SIGN) OTTAWA-HULL


IT IS REQUESTED THAT THIS MESSAGE BE GIVEN THE WIDEST POSSIBLE DISTRIBUTION


SIGNED BY RADM A. SMITH, CMP

 

[bridges]

Thanks for posting this, Army_101.  There's a FAQ on the DGMC site as well.  http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/DGMC/docs/programs/dmcpg/Annuitant_FAQ_en.pdf

Hopefully they'll post a copy of ref C there too. 

 

[Remius]

Not a bad FAQ actually.

 

[misratah500]

I was aware that a couple of years ago if you retired from the Reg's and collected your pension you could work as a reservist and "double dip". I know that they put a stop to this now.

But today I heard that as of this April you can no longer retire from the military and collect your superannuation anymore if you get a civvie federal government job? Has anyone heard about this or have any resources I can read on it.

Looks like private sector when I retire then.

 

[dapaterson]

As far as I know this is merely a rumour; no one has been able to point to any amendments to the PSEA or any related regulations that would preclude collecting a CFSA part I pension at the same time as pay for public sector employment.

There are limits on pensions: you can only accumulate a maximum of 35 years in the Federal Government, combined - so exiting the CF with a 25 year pension means you can only collect another 10 years of pensionable service in the public service.  But that restriction has been in place for a long time.

 

[dapaterson]

Place to watch for info: the lobby group for federal retirees: http://www.fsna.com  Nothing posted there discussing this alleged change.

The other change that may be confusing people is the change in retirement age: if you join the Public Service now, your base retirement age becomes 65, not 60 as per earlier hires.  This should have no impact on your benefits under the CFSA.

 

[misratah500]

If there is no change at all that's a good thing. You wouldn't believe the confusion some guys have about units. I heard these rumors from several PO1's.

Also I've had numerous brand new OS, AB, LS tell me that their pensions don't have immediate annuity and they have to wait to 60 to collect it.

Why is there so much confusion with our pensions.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Why is there so much confusion with our pensions.

rumours

I let you answer your own question..............

 

[cupper]

I let you answer your own question..............

:goodpost:

 

[George Wallace]

I was aware that a couple of years ago if you retired from the Reg's and collected your pension you could work as a reservist and "double dip". I know that they put a stop to this now.

Yes, Double Dippers worked in the Reserves and collected their Reg Force Pensions.  They were not paying into a Reserve Force Pension Plan.  Now if they want to work as a Class B Reservist for over 365 days, they cease their Reg Force Pension and start paying into the Reserve Force Pension Plan and collect their Pension when they retire from the Reserves.  Unless they are working full time for over 365 days as a Class B Reservist, there is no change to their collecting their Reg Force Pension.

But today I heard that as of this April you can no longer retire from the military and collect your superannuation anymore if you get a civvie federal government job? Has anyone heard about this or have any resources I can read on it.

It has always been that if you got a Civil Service job after earning a CF Pension, you would usually roll it over into the Public Service Pension Plan for a better pension in the end and again collected your pension when you retired from the Civil Service.  You could do this with both Provincial and Federal Civil Service jobs. 

So what is drastically new?