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Domestic Terrorism/Public Attacks on CAF Personnel

Oldgateboatdriver said:
If I look at the picture that was released, the Police seems to be near the Metro Center.

That picture would have been taken from the Duke Street side/north side of the Metro Center (now the Scotiabank Center), just at the South end of Albemarle Street (just past the Andrei tailor shop).
 
Crantor said:
Well, it wasn't an attempt to minimise any of their actions.  Be they lone wolf inspired planners, ISIS/ISIL, Boco Haram etc etc, I still think they are all a little "un-hinged and crazy".  And by a little, i mean a lot.  And while their minds might be coherant in the sense that they can plan whatever, they are certainly not rational by any stretch or definition as we know it here in this society.

I don't think that we have to be all PC when it comes to these types.

I wasn't directing my post at you specifically, and I am not trying to be PC or suggest anyone be PC.  I think these perps and others like them are cold blooded jackals, but calling them crazy, irrational, etc. deflects any real attempt at gaining an understanding into their (others like them) mindset so we can identify them and deal with them, and it gives the apologists and doves, an excuse to bury their heads and do nothing substantial to address the problem.  There is a very wide gulf between folks like this who may or may not have some sort of personality disorder, and decided to lash out at the world as a result, and the person standing on a street corner arguing with a lamp pole, who all of sudden attacks a random person because they thought they were a demon.  Lumping these 2 and like minded individuals into the same basket as the latter example, won't help stop them.  That's what I am getting at. 

Edit to add this, it was posted on my FB wall as I typed this, and it's exactly what I am talking about.

http://www.dhra.mil/perserec/osg/terrorism/radicalization.htm
 
Hatchet Man said:
Crantor said:
Well, it wasn't an attempt to minimise any of their actions.  Be they lone wolf inspired planners, ISIS/ISIL, Boco Haram etc etc, I still think they are all a little "un-hinged and crazy".  And by a little, i mean a lot.  And while their minds might be coherant in the sense that they can plan whatever, they are certainly not rational by any stretch or definition as we know it here in this society.

I don't think that we have to be all PC when it comes to these types.
I wasn't directing my post you specifically, and I am not trying to be PC or suggest anyone be PC.  I think these perps and others like them are cold blooded jackals, but calling them crazy, irrational, etc. deflects any real attempt at gaining an understanding into their (others like them) mindset we can identify them and deal with them, and it gives the apologists and doves, an excuse to bury their heads and do nothing substantial to address the problem.  There is a very wide gulf between folks like this who may or may not of some sort of personality disorder, and decided to lash out at the world as a result, and the person standing on a street corner arguing with a lamp pole, who all of sudden attacks a random person because they though they were a demon.  Lumping these 2 and like minded individuals into the same basket as the latter example, won't help stop them.  That's what I am getting at. 

Edit to add this, it was posted on my FB wall as I typed this, and it's exactly what I am talking about.

http://www.dhra.mil/perserec/osg/terrorism/radicalization.htm
Great link, HM - thanks for sharing that.

I think you're both right.  We have to deal with how the "jihad peddlars" flog their poisoned goods and affect vulnerable people while, at the same time, realizing that if we want fewer people to be susceptible to the allure of the jihad peddlars, there's cases where other stuff out there (call it mental illness, call it lack of resilience, whatever) needs fixing.
 
Hatchet Man said:
I wasn't directing my post you specifically, and I am not trying to be PC or suggest anyone be PC.  I think these perps and others like them are cold blooded jackals, but calling them crazy, irrational, etc. deflects any real attempt at gaining an understanding into their (others like them) mindset we can identify them and deal with them, and it gives the apologists and doves, an excuse to bury their heads and do nothing substantial to address the problem.  There is a very wide gulf between folks like this who may or may not of some sort of personality disorder, and decided to lash out at the world as a result, and the person standing on a street corner arguing with a lamp pole, who all of sudden attacks a random person because they though they were a demon.  Lumping these 2 and like minded individuals into the same basket as the latter example, won't help stop them.  That's what I am getting at.

Edit to add this, it was posted on my FB wall as I typed this, and it's exactly what I am talking about.

http://www.dhra.mil/perserec/osg/terrorism/radicalization.htm

Exactly, Let's accurately identify the threat.
 
Hatchet Man said:
I wasn't directing my post you specifically, and I am not trying to be PC or suggest anyone be PC.  I think these perps and others like them are cold blooded jackals, but calling them crazy, irrational, etc. deflects any real attempt at gaining an understanding into their (others like them) mindset we can identify them and deal with them, and it gives the apologists and doves, an excuse to bury their heads and do nothing substantial to address the problem.  There is a very wide gulf between folks like this who may or may not of some sort of personality disorder, and decided to lash out at the world as a result, and the person standing on a street corner arguing with a lamp pole, who all of sudden attacks a random person because they though they were a demon.  Lumping these 2 and like minded individuals into the same basket as the latter example, won't help stop them.  That's what I am getting at. 

Edit to add this, it was posted on my FB wall as I typed this, and it's exactly what I am talking about.

http://www.dhra.mil/perserec/osg/terrorism/radicalization.htm

Understood and point taken.
 
I feel that acting in an insane manner is the defining characteristic of the insane.

Insane is merely the description of someone who is not Sane. Sanity is defined and measured by observing ones behaviour and ability to make sane rational choices.

Radicalization will target those that have difficulty making sane rational choices. Therefore, identifying those that have difficulty and treating them as we can is one of many reasonable avenues of response. Ignoring them and leaving them to fester, out of some groundless and misguided fear that harmless disabled persons will be mistreated, is not.
 
This, from the Queen:
Prince Philip and I were shocked and saddened by the events in Ottawa earlier today. Our thoughts and prayers are with all those affected.
 
c_canuk said:
I feel that acting in an insane manner is the defining characteristic of the insane.

Insane is merely the description of someone who is not Sane. Sanity is defined and measured by observing ones behaviour and ability to make sane rational choices.

Except the professionals (ie Psychiatrists/Psychologists) don't use the terms sane/insane, crazy/not crazy, because those are fairly vague terms and wide open for interpretation.  They drill down to the root problem/disorder (or at least attempt to).  And btw there is no definition of sanity/insanity in the DSM

Radicalization will target those that have difficulty making sane rational choices. Therefore, identifying those that have difficulty and treating them as we can is one of many reasonable avenues of response. Ignoring them and leaving them to fester, out of some groundless and misguided fear that harmless disabled persons will be mistreated, is not.

And as the link I just posted pointed out, the how/why does one become radicalized is not entirely clear.  What is clear, majority of the people who are or become radicalized have no mental illness.
 
Maher: Time to reflect on the courage of our ancestors

By Stephen Maher, Postmedia News October 23, 2014

When I heard about the shooting, and headed to Parliament Hill, the first sign that something bad had happened was across Sussex Drive from the American embassy, where two Ottawa police officers were standing guard. One of them had an automatic rifle. A third man in green fatigues and a Kevlar vest was with them, with a police dog at his feet.

This, I thought with dismay, will now be a more common sight.

A few minutes closer to the Hill, on Wellington Street, across from the National War Memorial, I run into an ashen-faced John Ivison, of the National Post, who had arrived minutes earlier. He pointed to an older model Toyota Corolla car parked on the street and told me it was believed to be the shooter’s car.

A female police officer was walking down Wellington, putting up a line of police tape, shutting down the area.

Everyone was quiet, serious, tense.

I walked past Langevin building to the corner of Wellington and Metcalfe, across the street from the Hill. This was still minutes after the shooting, and nobody knew what was going on. Police were streaming to the Hill.

A few minutes earlier, a gunman had shot Cpl. Nathan Cirillo, 24, a member of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, a reserve regiment based in Hamilton, Ont.

Bystanders gave him mouth to mouth in a vain attempt to save his life.

After that, witnesses say, the gunman got into the Corolla, drove a very short distance and parked the car on Wellington. He then appears to have somehow got into Centre Block, where he shot and injured two guards before he was shot to death by Kevin Vickers, the gentlemanly former RCMP officer in charge of security on the Hill.

For the next several hours, police streamed to the Hill, organized themselves and slowly set up an expanding security perimeter.

I watched it for hours, being politely and firmly told to move back by very professional Ottawa Police Service officers.

Their calmness and resolve was impressive, and it was impressive to listen to the calm talk of the commanders on their police radios, all of them focused on making Canadians safe.

On the street, as in the Hall of Honour, where security guards bravely rushed the shooter, the courage and resolve of our police is a source of comfort to us when we are scared.

And people were scared. Cell towers downtown were overwhelmed with people calling and texting their loved ones. There were false reports of a third shooting scene at the Rideau Centre, and a fourth, at the Chateau Laurier. Police were scanning the rooftops looking for a shooter at large. At one point, a police officer warned me to get out of the street and take cover behind a building, so that I wouldn’t be a target.

It is too early to say for sure, but it seems likely that this was the work of one disturbed individual, someone swayed by the dark propaganda of extremists on the other side of the world.


It appears to be the same thing with the death of Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, 53, who was run down in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que., on Monday.

This is a terrible business, and we must mourn the loss of Vincent and Cirillo.

But we had best guard against giving into our fears.

On Wednesday afternoon, the Canadian Forces sent out an email to some members warning them against wearing their uniforms off base, cautioning they shouldn’t be seen to be soldiers when they stop for gas, for instance.

I think we should think of our ancestors. The war memorial that Cpl. Cirillo gave his life protecting was erected in 1938 to commemorate our losses in the First World War.

We lost almost 60,000 people in that war and more than 40,000 in the Second World War. We lost 158 in Afghanistan, not to mention the thousands of Canadian Forces members and veterans who will never fully recover from their physical and psychological wounds they suffered over there.

Our ancestors would not have allowed themselves to be cowed by two or three or 10 incidents like this.

On Wednesday evening, DND told me they have decided to suspend the sentry program in front of the war memorial “until further notice.”

Over time, as our society has become safer, we have become increasingly risk-adverse and fearful.

The blood-soaked maniacs in Iraq who are inspiring these killings know that about us, and they want us to be afraid. They want us to pay attention to their demented rants, to worry about more attacks.

If we give in to our fears, we will be engaged in an impossible quest for perfect security, and our streets will be lined with police. We will spend half our lives going through metal detectors, give up our civil liberties, and we won’t be any safer.

Or we can meditate on the courage of our ancestors, mourn the loss of Warrant Officer Vincent and Cpl. Cirillo, get those sentries back in front of the memorial, and take every opportunity to thank Canadian Forces members for having the courage to wear their uniforms in the street.

smaher@postmedia.com

Twitter.com/@stphnmaher

© Copyright (c) Postmedia Network Inc
 
This statement from the Sergeant at Arms (who got a standing O in the House today), via Huffington Post reporter's Facebook page:
I am very touched by the attention directed at me following yesterday’s events. However, I have the support of a remarkable security team that is committed to ensuring the safety of Members, employees and visitors to the Hill. Yesterday, during extraordinary circumstances, security personnel demonstrated professionalism and courage. I am grateful and proud to be part of this team.

House of Commons Security Services also maintains a close working relationship with its security partners, including Senate Security, the RCMP and the Ottawa Police. This close collaboration made it possible to pull together and quickly restore order in the Parliamentary Precinct and throughout the downtown core.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the Speaker, the Hon. Andrew Scheer, for his leadership and calm demeanour throughout.

On behalf of all members of the House of Commons Security Services team, I would like to extend our deepest condolences to the family of Cpl. Nathan Cirillo. Our prayers are with you. Our thoughts are also with Constable Samearn Son, who has been with the House of Commons Security Services for 10 years. Constable Son suffered a gun shot wound to the leg. He is in stable condition and expected to make a full recovery.

As this is an ongoing investigation, I unfortunately cannot comment any further at this time, nor can any member of my Security Services team.

Thank you,
Kevin Vickers
:salute:
 
The House's appreciation for a humble man:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152802025764604
 
George Wallace said:
The House's appreciation for a humble man:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152802025764604
With a further idea for appreciation from a reporter on Twitter:
Bill C-633, the Kevin Vickers never pays for his own drinks in this country again Act.

Meanwhile (further proof of the "beware early reports" caveat) - highlights mine ....
Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the Parliament Hill attacker, was not on the RCMP’s list of 90 individuals under criminal investigation as potential threats, sources tell the Star.

That distinguishes him from Martin Couture-Rouleau, who ran down two Canadian soldiers Monday, killing one.

Zehaf-Bibeau was not formally identified as a “high-risk traveller” but had applied for a passport, a process that was ongoing. However, he hadn’t been issued one because authorities had raised questions about the application.

Security sources told the Star that while Zehaf-Bibeau’s name was known to Canada’s spy service, CSIS, he was not considered a high-priority case.

Erroneous reports Wednesday stated he was listed as one of Canada’s nearly 90 designated high-risk suspects who showed aspirations of travelling to fight abroad and had their passports seized. Couture-Rouleau, 25, who killed Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent in a hit-and-run in Quebec, was arrested at Montreal’s airport in July while on his way to Turkey and his passport taken.

Sources say Zehaf-Bibeau had tried to renew an expired passport and had been questioned — but his case had not been elevated to that of Couture-Rouleau ....
 
More on Bibeau and some of his activities...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/23/world/ottawa-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
 
It's troubling to me that the narrative around Justin Bourque never really included "terrorism." He targeted the RCMP and killed 3 officers, and there's every indication he was driven by a far right, anti-government, anti-gun control ideology. I'm far more worried about people like that than home grown "terrorists" of may or may not be of Arab descent. The FBI and the RCMP are also more concerned about right wing militias and the like than Islamic fundamentalism. Somehow this reality seems to be lost on our esteemed mainstream media.
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
I understand that may have been appropriate in previous years, but given today's threat environment and what had already happened in Montreal, this seems like complete negligence which resulted in the loss of life of a good young man and father.  Whomever is responsible for the decision needs to take a trip to Hamilton and explain their logic to his son....because if they can't do that with a straight a face, then it was a pure-BS political optics decision and we as a society need to talk about why it was made and damn-well fix it.

As a civilian, I don't think you guys are obligated to be targets to fifth column terrorists.  On the contrary, I believe we as a civilian body have an obligation to provide you with the authorization to use deadly force if you come under attack on our soil, regardless of the role you happen to be in at that moment.

Bottom Line:  The world has changed and you guys shouldn't be wearing a bullseye on home turf without any means of protecting yourselves....I hope it doesn't take further casualties before a policy change is made.



M.

By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by
imitation, which is easiest; and third, by experience, which is the bitterest.

Confucius
 
Crantor said:
With that logic (and I'm not saying it is wrong) then all CAF members while on duty should be armed with live ammo.  WO Vincent was in uniform and was a target.

Ceremonial Sentries be they at the cenotaph or rideau hall, as has been mentioned, are performing a ceremonial role.  for anyone who has done it before, you don't exactly have situational awareness.  You are at attentione or at ease the whole time with the occasional "beat" patrol.  At RH at least you either have a wall or sentry box/gate behind you but at the cenotaph anyone can sneak behind any of them.  Imagine someone coming from behind, grabbing a rifle while standing at ease.  Bad enough without it having a full mag.

Arming them will really achieve very little given their ceremonial duty and weapons either being at the shoulder or at the order.  Reaction, posture etc etc is not very condusive if you are the target of an attack.  As well, firing a C-7 in that kind of public space when defending yourself or others is risky without the approriate training. 

Years ago (they might still be doing it) we had a member in CF order nearby to ensure the sentries were not harrassed etc etc.  Armed with a cell phone.  The more logical solution to current events would be to have an armed guard watching them.  Be it an MP, cop or whoever.  Discreetly out of the way with a pistol.  While it may not prevent someone from doing what they did it might certainly end it sooner.

Add an armed soldier to the location who is there for security.  I am curious how the ceremonial guard at and around Buckingham Palace are kitted, as an example.
 
Hatchet Man said:
Actually all on duty CAF members can in fact carry and use firearms http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/pol-aut-eng.htm
emphasis mine.

CAF members have the legal/authority via the Criminal Code and Firearms Act.  It's the Commanders in the CAF and internal policies that prohibit it.

I have carried a loaded firearm while on duty in Canada, as a Cbt Arms soldier, under certain circumstances.  It was not the norm, and that is what I am referring to in my post; the norm. 
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Add an armed soldier to the location who is there for security.  I am curious how the ceremonial guard at and around Buckingham Palace are kitted, as an example.

This isn't gospel. But I have heard that only the guys at the tower of london had any ammo since they actually had a security tasking.  I believe they may also have been armed when the IRA were giving them issues.

Perhaps somebody in the know can chime in.

Edit:  It should also be noted that the public can get nowhere as near to the Guards in London (fence and gates prevent this) as they can here (one can litterally stand next to them and get in their way.
 
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