Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project

[Colin Parkinson]

Reviving an old thread, based on an interesting article from Strategypage:

Sea Transportation: Saving The Sevmorput

The world’s only nuclear-powered non-military ships are operated by Russia These include five nuclear powered icebreakers and one cargo ship, the Sevmorput While Russia is building five new nuclear icebreakers, the first one completed has run int

strategypage.com

While a nuclear powered, semi icebreaker LASH (Lighters Aboard Ship) might be a bit much, given the extreme conditions that it is ment to operate under, the Sevmorput is perhaps the most reasonable solution possible for the arctic. Certainly Canada is now moving towards developing small, modular nuclear powerplants, so we could indeed go that way if desired, but even without nuclear power, this type of ship seems ideal to provide logistics support to the far North for most of the year. The use of on board lighters allows you to send supplies even into shallow waters, and the Sevmorput also has several on board cranes so it can transfer cargo containers and other supplies and equipment to a dock as well.

One thing that "we" collectively don't have a real handle on is how to support large scale operations in the arctic. Thinking about ships like this could be one way to extend our reach.

Interesting, didn't think any LASH ships were still in service. Ice strengthened Bay Class or Mistrals would give us enough capacity to move the materials that we could realistically muster as our BV 206 fleet is dwindling as well, as well as provide Forward fleet support and command functions.

 

[Kirkhill]

OK.

Changing track completely now.

I have a new obsession.

For a long time I have been a fan of the Swedish defence industry, and in particular the BAE Haegglunds Bandvagon Series as exemplified by the Bv206. I have assumed that there is no better solution to the DAME (Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement) Project. I wuz wrong.

Oh Canada!

Bombardier and Foremost (a Calgary oilfield specialist company) have solid reputations and interesting solutions, with Bombardier strongly penetrating the recreational market or light snowmobiles, ATVs and "tricycles"

Trundling along in the rear has been a small specialty company called Argo.

I think Argo might be the future.

Arctic mobility makes tracks | Canadian Army Today

canadianarmytoday.com

This is the Argo

But Argo now has a big brother

The Argo Sherp Pro XT - a Canadian derivative of a Russian invention marketed by a Ukrainian company. Canadianization means modifying the drive to the Argo style chain bath, replacing the Kubota diesel with a North American legal Doosan from Hyundai, and putting some comfortable seats and controls in it. The unit has attracted the attention of Rheinmetal of Quebec who have extended their Argo Mission Master range to include the Sherp as the Mission Master XT. Rheinmetall is focusing on the Argo series as UGVs. But it can also operate as an optionally manned UGV.
Now for the videos.

The original Russian/Ukrainian Vehicle

The Argo Vehicle

The Rheinmetall Vehicle

The Rheinmetall Argo Mission Master Original

Argo Promo.

And as an aside to the tankers - the optionally manned concept is also being applied to tanks - perhaps there is hope for the one-man tank yet.

The National Interest: Blog

nationalinterest.org

Or even an optionally manned Ripsaw

Ripsaw Unmanned Mini-Tank Sent To The Army's Shooting Range For The First Time

The Ripsaw is better known for its action movie pedigree, but the Army's unmanned version packs a very real 30mm cannon.

www.thedrive.com

The bases of a Canadian Light Brigade, Militia and SAR? Air, Sea and Heliportable? CH-146, CH-148, CH-149, CH-147, CC-295, CC-130, AOPS?

 

[Kirkhill]

This is what really sold me.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What I like about Sherpa's is they have an enclosed cab, that's a big thing in the Arctic. the good news is they are in production . Meaning we can buy a batch for evaluation and if we like them, then buy a licence to have them built in Canada and the companies here bid on the construction and not the design. I think these types can compliment the BV 210s' and armoured versions. The Sherpas could be bought to provide mobility and support to the Ranger patrols and Arctic SAR.

#1 SHERP ATV Sales – USA. New & Used. Sell on Consignment.

The #1 SHERP ATV sales broker in the USA. Selling new and used SHERPs. View inventory now or call/text: 218.766.3447

sherpatvsales.com

 

[Kirkhill]

What I like about Sherpa's is they have an enclosed cab, that's a big thing in the Arctic. the good news is they are in production . Meaning we can buy a batch for evaluation and if we like them, then buy a licence to have them built in Canada and the companies here bid on the construction and not the design. I think these types can compliment the BV 210s' and armoured versions. The Sherpas could be bought to provide mobility and support to the Ranger patrols and Arctic SAR.

#1 SHERP ATV Sales – USA. New & Used. Sell on Consignment.

The #1 SHERP ATV sales broker in the USA. Selling new and used SHERPs. View inventory now or call/text: 218.766.3447

sherpatvsales.com

One point though Colin, judging from the Argo and Rheinmetall videos, there is already a Canadian licence and production.

Argo seems to own the licence and is teamed with Rheinmetal for the Mission Master XT.

The Argo version also seems to be built around the Hyndai, Doosan D18 EPA diesel.

 

[Kirkhill]

ARGO Partners with SHERP for Co-Brand Agreement

/CNW/ -- ARGO, the worldwide leader for amphibious Extreme Terrain Vehicles (XTVs), is pleased to announce it has entered into a manufacturing and supply...

www.newswire.ca

SHERP

Industry	Amphibious off-road vehicles
Founded	2012
Headquarters	Winnipeg, Canada Kyiv, Ukraine Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Key people	Alexei Garagashyan (Engineer) Yaroslav Prygara (former CEO) Vlad Shkolnik (Owner) Sergey Samokhvalov (Owner)
Products	Amphibious ATV/UTV/XTV
Number of employees	300+ (120 in Russia)
Website	https://sherp.ru https://sherpglobal.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Rheinmetall ports its Mission Master autonomous control system to the rest of its fleet including

Wiesel
Lynx
Boxer
HX Trucks

All can be driven manually, remotely, in follow mode or authonomously.

 

[Kirkhill]

Meanwhile the Yanks continue to develop their arctic mobility

- Oshkosh/Singapore Bronco-Warthog vs BAE/Hagglunds BvS10-Viking

Cold combat: BAE Systems and Oshkosh vie for US Army’s CATV programme BAE Systems and Oshkosh vie for US Army’s CATV programme

The US Army has selected vehicles from BAE Systems Hägglunds and Oshkosh Defense for its CATV programme.

www.army-technology.com

- Enhances Follow the Leader technology (same concept that Rheinmetall is developing with the Canadian Argo/Sherpa and the German Wiesel

Army Sees Progress with Leader-Follower Vehicle Technology

Army Sees Progress with Leader-Follower Vehicle Technology

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org

No doubt we will end up buying one of the US or Brit solutions and then subsidize Bombardier to have them (the Yanks and Brits) show us how to make snowmobiles.

Just as well there is no need for all terrain vehicles in Canada or the Canadian Forces. We don't know how to make them.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have no problem with them paying for the tests and we picking the model based on our needs and using the information gained for that.

 

[foresterab]

I've started seeing sherpa vehicles on fires...frankly not very good as they have too small of cargo capacity and limited passenger capacity. If you have an equipment operator and can only carry 3? people it's not a great mix.

The original Hagglunds are still well respected and used although the older Nodewell and Merukas are still floating around. Why are they used? All terrain access, in crappy conditions, and can operate when aircraft can't/won't fly especially due to flight conditions. There are some newer Meruka's that are used as dump trailers/cargo frames that are modern designs but there are few passenger models around.

 

[Spencer100]

Meanwhile the Yanks continue to develop their arctic mobility

- Oshkosh/Singapore Bronco-Warthog vs BAE/Hagglunds BvS10-Viking

Cold combat: BAE Systems and Oshkosh vie for US Army’s CATV programme BAE Systems and Oshkosh vie for US Army’s CATV programme

The US Army has selected vehicles from BAE Systems Hägglunds and Oshkosh Defense for its CATV programme.

www.army-technology.com

- Enhances Follow the Leader technology (same concept that Rheinmetall is developing with the Canadian Argo/Sherpa and the German Wiesel

Army Sees Progress with Leader-Follower Vehicle Technology

Army Sees Progress with Leader-Follower Vehicle Technology

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org

No doubt we will end up buying one of the US or Brit solutions and then subsidize Bombardier to have them (the Yanks and Brits) show us how to make snowmobiles.

Just as well there is no need for all terrain vehicles in Canada or the Canadian Forces. We don't know how to make them.

Small point....Bombardier just builds Large Private Business Jet now. That's it. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

The legacy business of Snowmobiles is BRP. They still have one plant in Valcourt Que.

 

[Kirkhill]

Small point....Bombardier just builds Large Private Business Jet now. That's it. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

The legacy business of Snowmobiles is BRP. They still have one plant in Valcourt Que.

Thanks for the reminder, from the BRP (Bombardier Recreational Products)

Discover our journey - BRP

Headquartered in the Canadian town of Valcourt, Quebec, BRP has been building on a tradition of ingenuity and intense customer focus since 1937

www.brp.com

We create innovative ways to move – on snow, on water, on asphalt or dirt – even in the air.

Headquartered in the Canadian town of Valcourt, Quebec, BRP has been reimagining the way you access your world since 2003 and beyond. Building on a tradition of ingenuity and intense customer focus that go all the way back to 1937, we operate manufacturing facilities in Canada, the United States, Mexico, Finland, Austria and Australia. We have a total workforce of more than 14,500 driven, resourceful people.

Our portfolio of industry-leading and distinctive products comprises Ski-Doo and Lynx snowmobiles, Sea-Doo watercraft, Can-Am On- and Off-Road vehicles, Alumacraft, Manitou, Quintrex and Rotax marine propulsion systems as well as Rotax engines for karts and recreational aircraft. We support our product lines with a dedicated parts, accessories and clothing business, to fully enhance your riding experience.

The Calgary alternative is Foremost Mobile Equipment

Foremost Mobile Equipment

Download Foremost Mobile Equipment Product Catalog Foremost Mobile Equipment Since 1965, the Foremost name has been associated with our remarkable line of off-road tracked and wheeled vehicles. Early innovations like the Nodwell 110, developed in the Canadian Arctic in the 1960’s, set Foremost

www.foremost.ca

Foremost Mobile Equipment​

Since 1965, the Foremost name has been associated with our remarkable line of off-road tracked and wheeled vehicles. Early innovations like the Nodwell 110, developed in the Canadian Arctic in the 1960’s, set Foremost on the road to success. Foremost vehicles are in operation around the globe moving people, supplies and equipment across some of the most difficult terrain imaginable. Over the years, Foremost’s low-bearing ground pressure transportation equipment has gained international recognition for reliable performance and mobility in extreme conditions.
Our products include exploration drills, waterwell & construction drills, tooling for mining & drilling, pipe handlers, vac trucks, and heavy duty tracked & wheeled off-road vehicles.

And Foremost had the contract to supply 400 Hagglunds Bv206 to the Canadian Army in 1988. Cancelled.

 

[Spencer100]

Oh yes one more point the (took me a minute to remember and look up)

Bombardier first line of business the Muskeg (sold machines to the army in WWII) and BR series of machines was sold to Camplast which then sold to the Italian snow groomer company Prinoth which is part Lietner. They make ski lifts and snow making equipment. The company still has a plant in Granby Que.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And Foremost had the contract to supply 400 Hagglunds Bv206 to the Canadian Army in 1988. Cancelled.

Nooooooooo..........

 

[Kirkhill]

Nooooooooo..........

What? You reckon they might have come in handy in BC recently?

 

[daftandbarmy]

What? You reckon they might have come in handy in BC recently?

In BC.... or anywhere else too.

 

[Dana381]

Dew engineering built diesel snowmobiles, I'm not sure if they still are building them but I bet they could re-start the line in the CAF asked nicely.

I saw a bunch for sale a while ago on G.C. surplus. Maybe we should have kept them

 

[Kirkhill]

Kind of looks like Sarcee.

BAE, Oshkosh cold weather vehicle prototypes survive Army’s Alaskan tests​

BAE, Oshkosh cold weather vehicle prototypes survive Army's Alaskan tests - Breaking Defense

BAE systems and Oshkosh Defense, with its partner ST Engineering, will now compete for the contract, with an award expected near the end of June.

breakingdefense.com

I guess we'll have to wait and see if the Americans buy the Swedish or the Singaporean snowmobile before we decide which one to Canadianize.

Meanwhile

Oshkosh Defense announces first hybrid electric JLTV​

Oshkosh Defense announces first hybrid electric JLTV - Breaking Defense

Oshkosh's current major customers, the Army and the Marines, haven't asked for an electric hybrid JLTV, but the company said the ones they have can be retrofitted "easily."

breakingdefense.com

Just spitballing but would a hybrid electric version of either the Bronco or the BandVagon be of use to Canadians in general or the army in particular, or even just the Molitia?

 

[KevinB]

Just spitballing but would a hybrid electric version of either the Bronco or the BandVagon be of use to Canadians in general or the army in particular, or even just the Molitia?

EV's don't like the cold - Don't think there will be any use for a Cold Weather Hybrid - as the heater will suck it dry, so it would need to run the regular engine nearly all the time.
All it adds is cost and complexity.

 

[lenaitch]

EV's don't like the cold - Don't think there will be any use for a Cold Weather Hybrid - as the heater will suck it dry, so it would need to run the regular engine nearly all the time.
All it adds is cost and complexity.

Plus you need a genny instead of a bowser (or cans), and 're-fuel' time is a lot slower.