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Does Canada need a Military?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Polish Mig-29 Pilot
  • Start date Start date
About the only thing I think Canada needs to change with its army is the fact that we ALL need to be soldiers FIRST and foremost.  The Marine Corps is a prime example of what Canada needs.  Every person that puts on a uniform needs to qualify on the range every year, and conduct actual dismounted ops.  We say that we do it, but for those of you who currently serve, you know how it is sometimes.  There is a HUGE differance between saying "Soldier First" and actually meaning it.
 
Phatrodent, you are quite correct. Generals Hillier and Caron are both pushing this notion hard. Logistics branch, look out because you guys are the number one bunch that will get a culture shock  >:D The Infantry, armour, arty and FD Eng have been traditionally still "Soldiers first" all along so it won't be a drastic change.

The days of the Canadian Employment Forces are over.  Lets all do our part to put the ARMY back in army. For those of you who do not agree, GET OUT  ^-^
 
jmackenzie_15 said:
The notion that the US would someday "assimilate" Canada is entirely possible and quite frightening, and could easily happen alot sooner than most people think.

Its been said on these forums many times before, but in the event of another large scale terrorist attack on the US, that US intelligence discovered to have been staged from inside Canada, we would then be seen as a safe haven for terrorists, and we are obviously unable to keep them out of Canada.We are now a liability to the US. What do you think would happen then?

"Don't fret Canada, we're here patrolling your streets for your own protection" - George Bush, 2008

A nightmarish scenario if you ask me.

I find it disturbing and discomforting that our military is as meak as it is... I pray that it gets some kind of large scale resurgence very VERY quickly.

The odds of us staying a sovreign nation, with the most abundance of the worlds natural resources (oil, food, water) without an adequate military to defend ourselves, is 100-0. History does indeed go in circles, and the farther we drift into mediocrity, the more we are inviting our american "friends" to sleep over for the weekend.

Understandable, but at the same time, in order to defend a land mass the size of Canada against the US, we'd need an army bigger than China's. If the US wanted to annex Canada, no matter what kind of military force we had, we really wouldn't stand much of a chance - they have ten times our population, a far stronger and more diversified economy and a military system that's technologically superior to ours is almost every way. In addition to this, a great deal of our defence materials and equipment come from the US, so we would be reduced to fighting a guerrila war, which I don't know how long we would be able to sustain if the US controlled all shipping traffic in and out of North America. And as much as the rest of the world generally likes Canada, I don't know if any of them are friendly enough to go to war with the US for us. If the US was really bent on taking over Canada, there's pretty much nothing that we could do to stop them. Or even slow them down, really.

And since we have the US (the most economically and militarily powerful country in the world) as our neighbour, nobody's going to try to attack or invade us. Personally, I think that we should maintain enough of a force to keep our overseas commitments (which would imply either stepping up our military capacity, or cutting back on our overseas commitments - for the moment, the government seems to be taking the first road), while having enough back in Canada to respond to natural disasters, riots, etc. I would suggest that regular force be used for overseas deployments, due to the fact that they're much better prepared for such tasks (simply because they can train all day every day) than reserves, and reserves be trained and used during national emergencies where civilian agencies do not have the capacity to respond adequately.
 
Mr.PhatRat said:
About the only thing I think Canada needs to change with its army is the fact that we ALL need to be soldiers FIRST and foremost.   The Marine Corps is a prime example of what Canada needs.   Every person that puts on a uniform needs to qualify on the range every year, and conduct actual dismounted ops.   We say that we do it, but for those of you who currently serve, you know how it is sometimes.   There is a HUGE differance between saying "Soldier First" and actually meaning it.

    The reality of our forces overseas is that there is no such thing as a safe area.  As the US has discovered in Iraq, and we all have discovered in sunny Afghanistan, it is as likely that a supply convoy, or recovery vehicle may be the first point of contact for an insurgent attack, our "support troops" are the ones that the insurgents target, rather than our amoured recce and frontline infantry patrols.  Our troops from clerks to drivers to mechanics must be infantry trained, and current engough react instintively and agressively to turn an "ambush close" on our support troops into a bad idea.  There have been times enough in the past, like my grandfathers quote about the battles of the Schelte in WWII where we have sent "the cooks, the clerks, and the Sgt Mgr's blinking band" into the line to push an assault through.  If every soldier is an infantry man first, then there will be no soft targets for the enemy to attack, and there will be solidarity in the forces as every soldier shares a common vision of the CF as a fighting force, not a uniformed branch of the dept of transport or finance ministry.
 
This is a no-brainer.  But a surpisingly large number of leftists in this country believe it.

These people are usually the same ones that scream "our sovereignty is under attack" at any notion of closer relations with the US.

Well, if you disband the Canadian Forces, you might as well lower the Maple Leaf on that flagpole and run up the Stars and Stripes, because we will no longer be sovereign, and the US will take up our defence by default.
 
Quote from: Polish Mig-29 Pilot on May 04, 2001, 16:16:00
The thing about this is. Canada has no clear danger or no clear enemy.

Just because there was no enemy that particular day, doesnt mean one cannot present itself tomorrow.
Would you pack your kit for a month based on the sunny weather of one day ?
 
On the point of the USA annexing Canada... I for one, LOVE this country. If that were to somehow happen, I would not live in Canada under US rule. I will pickup and move somewhere else in the world if I have to.

Also, I believe the rest of the world wouldn't sit by and watch the USA takeover Canada, because they all know what that would mean. They would be undefeatable indefinately in any conventional and probably unconventional war. They would have basically unlimited natural resources to run amok and do as they please. Indestructible really...

I believe if that happened, it would be the last straw for the world to put up with and there would be a war the likes of which no one could imagine. It would end up being 1/2 the world against the USA probably. I don't even think Britain or France would allow that to happen. I'd much rather we be taken completely back under British rule than American. And technically since we're still part of the Commonwealth, they have to defend us!

You folks really think the world would let Canada crumble like that???

I don't believe so and I would die to defend our country and what it stands for.
 
"I don't believe so and I would die to defend our country and what it stands for."

- You choose your enemies poorly, but, anyway, just what DOES Canada stand for?  in your own words...

Tom
 
Does Canada Need An Army?...The question is foolish no need for any long winded history just simple reality as follows:
Under international law and conventions to be considered a country you need:
1.  You must be able to control your borders from attack.
2.  You must be able to control the civilian population and quell civil unrest with a police force.
3.  You must be able to control your waterways and sea coast out to the international limit.

  Without all of these you cannot be considered a country. So why do we need an army, it is self explanatory if you don't want to be taken over by a rebel force who could in turn provide the above 3 items and ask for standing in the world as a legitimate country.
 
Canada does not need an army for defensive or offensive purposes.  The US has a 400 billion dollar a year Military budget.  The Americans air superiority is enough to win any battle.  Any threat to us and by proxy the USA would respond.

Canada does need an army to flex it's sovereignly even though it's more of a staged event than an actual necessity.

Without all of these you cannot be considered a country. So why do we need an army, it is self explanatory if you don't want to be taken over by a rebel force who could in turn provide the above 3 items and ask for standing in the world as a legitimate country.

You can be considered a country without a military.  There are countries right now with no Army, Air Force, or Navy to call their own. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_an_army. You may not be a world player, but meh.  There are many nice socialist countries with insignificant forces and they are not under threat of losing their borders.

New Zealand's army is 1000 or so strong, they couldn't defend their land against a swarm of lemurs.  Iceland.... not sure but I'm guessing it's small.  Today, rebel force can't just take over a powerful country.  Canada will never be taken over by 'rebels'.  Presently, nobody is that unhappy to actually spur a bloody revolution.  And if a rebellion did emerge then chances are the army (or a good portion of the army) would side with the rebels.  So aside from image and personal pride, you can't make an argument that Canada would lose it's borders without the CF. I would like to hear your argument.

As of late, I'm starting to wonder if 'image' is what Canada even needs.  I was sure it was for a very long time, and even championed it here at the forums.  But given our population, our budget, and our place geographically- Can we support a worthy military?  One that does not run on out-dated ships and one that Canadians could rely on?  I'd say no.  Small populations wield small taxes on top of which we import more than we export, so Canada has neither the bank nor size to support anything other than small military.

And to me, a small military is starting to become slightly irrelevant.  I think a portion of Canadians feel pride in knowing they have an army and to that degree I'd say it's a good thing to have around.  It really is the only argument I can see as to why we MUST have a military.  Because the world would not notice if we scrapped our CF.  I'm sure the US does not care, just as long as we have missile stocked satellites orbiting over our hemisphere.

---------------------------------------------

The US will not Annex Canada.  Wealthy American industrialist already own a large portion of our industry.  Vancouver’s hottest money maker at the moment, Land, is own vastly by wealthy Hong Kong business men - So don't think Americans are the only greedy ones out there.  We sold Alaska and whatever lumber we don't use for ourselves, we sell to the US alongside energy and produce.  I'm not sure if the cost of annexing Canada would be worth the hassle.  Business with Canada works good for the US at the moment until our dollar surpasses their own.  But the US would respond ot a weak dollar by simply tacking on tariffs to Canadian imports. 

The US is not a threat.  I can't think of one threat in the entire world.  Building a huge army will not 'weed' out terrorism either.  Stricter border control and spy games (CSIS, CIA, MI6) is what prevents that sort of thing, not Fort Bragg or Gagetown.  Terrorists don't care about how big an army is, if you haven't already noticed.

So between the lack of threat and money and the presence of a big neighbor- Canada's military does seem a bit superfluous.
 
Looking at a map it should be blindingly obvious as to why Canada needs a military.
 
No, the US could respond with a much bigger force, and are monitering our NOrthern shores for us, much to our chagrin.  What Canada needs (or so the US thinks) is missles floating in space and missle bases on our land. 
 
Scipio said:
No, the US could respond with a much bigger force, and are monitering our NOrthern shores for us, much to our chagrin.  What Canada needs (or so the US thinks) is missles floating in space and missle bases on our land. 

go back to your playpen kid......

come back when you can walk and talk on your own    ::)

 
Canada does not need an army for defensive or offensive purposes.  The US has a 400 billion dollar a year Military budget.  The Americans air superiority is enough to win any battle.

Every time I read a newspaper or watch the news on TV, I marvel at how well the air force is winning battles in Iraq and Afghanistan.  ::)

 
Scipio,

    Some of your examples are protectorits so they have an armed force protecting it, others are encircled by countries that have issued Independence and promised to protect thus they have a armed force. I see that TCI is not on the list (my new home) it has no armed force but has a promise of protection from its Independence grantor. They have also seen the need to maintain their status and will be developing an armed force soon. Let me explain again...if you have a country with no defence then a rebel force can come in and provide the 3 criteria I laid out and then ask for status from the world and they will be granted it...shizam....new country.
 
Regardless of debates about repelling an unlikely US invasion (you can take over a country with economics too, don't forget) Canada has a responsibility to assist in the world security theatre.  We have resources and ability, and should not sit back and say "stick you" to the rest of the planet because we don't have any boarding parties showing up in Vancouver or St John. 
For decades we have shirked our relative military responsibilities to NATO onto others.  The government and the people of Canada, IMO, have said repeatedly "well, just let the Americans take care of it" and now OH MY GAWD!!! the Americans are taking care of things!  Crazy how that happens!
It is our turn to step up and start making things better.  And in my biased opinion, the areas that we secure and help rebuild will turn out more stable and appreciative than the ones the US takes on.
 
Did I read something wrong here?  At what point did "we" (Canada) own Alaska?  Or did Scipio just out himself as a Russian sleeper agent?
 
Kat Stevens said:
Did I read something wrong here?  At what point did "we" (Canada) own Alaska?  Or did Scipio just out himself as a Russian sleeper agent?
I was wondering the same.  Must be that New History, that goes with the New Math. 
 
Scipio: Please start checking your facts before you post nonsense. The NZ Armed Forces do not consist of 1,000 people.According to the NZ MND website:

"..The New Zealand Defence Force comprises some 8,721 regular force, 2,275 territorial force Service men and women and 2,134 civilian staff across the armed services of Navy, Army and Air Force, operating as Three Services – One Force..."

I know from personal experience that NZ has deployed forces to FRY and Afgh (as part of OEF.

Externally, I think your argument ignores reality. There are no "significant" countries without armed forces, and certainly no countries that aspire to any sort of world role, which Canada has for the better part of a century now.(Whether or not it has resourced that role properly is another question...) As Germany and Japan re-discovered in the later years of the last century, the currency of influence in the world includes the willingness to risk blood as well as just treasure, and not necessarily just in defense of your immediate doorstep. IMHO there is no more clear statement that a country can make than to deploy its forces in harm's way. As long as Canada wishes to play in the world leagues, we will need effective and deployable forces.

Internally, in terms of our own physical sovereignty, (not to mention credibility and leverage in our relations with the US), the argument for effective forces as a clear demonstration of our interest in the security of our own territory should be self-evident. As well, do not make the mistake of thinking that the current political/economic situation in the world can't change, bringing us security threats we can't envision right now. Sticking our heads in the sand and insisting that "things will always be this way" is probably not a very effective course of action.

Cheers
 
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