Def Min's "Architect" Statements (split fm Walts et. al.)

[QV]

Bogey,

I am getting tired of your "What I feel" reasons for your post.  The man is retired, commission is retired.  This is not the lord of the ******* rings where his past totally dictates his future.  Give it a rest.

I call bullshit.  Stop pandering for sympathy, as our Country is very empathetic to our Military,a and understand it better than what you portray YOURSELF in knowing.....

If you are getting tired, don't read the thread.  I am enjoying this discussion. 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Churchill did serve

Churchill was never a senior officer, he retired as a Major.  You'll note that I said "General Officers" when I mentioned the house of Lords. 

Bogey,

I am getting tired of your "What I feel" reasons for your post.  The man is retired, commission is retired.  This is not the lord of the ******* rings where his past totally dictates his future.  Give it a rest.

Don't get your pants in a knot 48th Regulator.  I've quoted lots of sources in the above posts.  My beef is when Officers use their military service for political purposes, it's unprofessional.

I call bullshit.  Stop pandering for sympathy, as our Country is very empathetic to our Military,a and understand it better than what you portray YOURSELF in knowing.

Not pandering for sympathy, simply stating the fact that Defence isn't important to Canadians, would you like me to cite one of the numerous surveys available?

Good thing Churchhill never served....

Again as a Major, not a Senior Officer.

Yes, Tea and Crumpets will be served at 1400 hrs.....

You know we are 2017, and we really look at Canada more than we do other nations.  That Right, Great Britain is another nation,not our lords anymore.  Just in Fancy dress regs.

Hmmmm, you're clearly ignorant of our political institutions if you believe the above.  Canada follows The Westminster system and has a bicameral legislature.
The House of Lords serves the same purpose as the Senate, it's not the systems fault that we've bastardized the Upper House.

Look, although Meme's are cute, we can't base our opinion on them.  Can you find the list of Senators?  That will really show me if you are truly an Aficionado on pomp and pagentry when it comes to tradition, and what is right for "Royal" Canadian appointments, including a commission.

dileas

tess

I never once cited a meme.  Did cite a couple of political theorists, quote a few Generals, etc.

Don't care about pomp and pageantry, I care about the institutions we have functioning properly.  You know that whole "peace, order and good government" thing.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Churchill did serve

My grandfather was with the Queen's Own 4th Hussars in Bangalore from 1895-1902.  He served under Churchill.  At that time, Churchill was not respected by the other officers (at least) as they used to beat the shit out of him and throw him into the horse troughs.  Mom never mentioned what the ranks thought of him, grandfather was a Cpl.  Churchill did serve in the front lines to some distinction in France after the Gallipoli disaster. These experiences must have taught him some lessons in being successful in politics.

I am bias, but I will have more faith (Leslie excepted) in a Member of Parliament who has served than a mouth piece who had things handed to him because of his father, political connections or just a being a bloody lawyer.  (sorry FJAG, not a lawyer fan)

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

My grandfather was with the Queen's Own 4th Hussars in Bangalore from 1895-1902.  He served under Churchill.  At that time, Churchill was not respected by the other officers (at least) as they used to beat the crap out of him and throw him into the horse troughs.  Mom never mentioned what the ranks thought of him, grandfather was a Cpl.  Churchill did serve in the front lines to some distinction in France after the Gallipoli disaster. These experiences must have taught him some lessons in being successful in politics.

I am bias, but I will have more faith (Leslie excepted) in a Member of Parliament who has served than a mouth piece who had things handed to him because of his father, political connections or just a being a bloody lawyer.  (sorry FJAG, not a lawyer fan)

Churchill was an excellent politician; however, I don't know if he was much of a soldier.  He also didn't take part in any serious battle while commanding his Battalion in WWI.

One of the benefits of being a writer back in the day is you could write whatever you wanted without the worry of immediate retorts or having someone being able to confirm the validity of what you were saying.  Churchill never wrote in an academic setting where his work would have been scrutinized. 

 

[Loachman]

Parliament and the Senate, and hence the Country as a whole, benefit from diversity of membership. I'd rather have former Officers in both than neither, and both places could benefit from a few former Sergeants-Major as well.

I'd infinitely prefer that such members had served in areas of conflict and had to struggle with ancient and crumbling equipment as well.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Parliament and the Senate, and hence the Country as a whole, benefit from diversity of membership. I'd rather have former Officers in both than neither, and both places could benefit from a few former Sergeants-Major as well.

I'd infinitely prefer that such members had served in areas of conflict and had to struggle with ancient and crumbling equipment as well.

I fundamentally disagree because what you end up with is an "iron triangle" much like what exists in the United States with the "Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex".

Having former officers, especially senior officers, in a legislative body corrupts the political process.  In my mind, it's no different than having a judge run for office.  Mind you in Canada, retired judges are allowed to do so but they're not supposed to refer to themselves as a judge.  Some do though and there are plenty of Judges that think that's wrong. 

Lobbyists and Special Interest Groups are IMO, and many would agree with me, the biggest threat to democratic government today.

 

[Rifleman62]

.... an "iron triangle" much like what exists in the United States with the "Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex".

I think what you are describing is the laurentian Lieliberal elites vice Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex.

 

[Journeyman]

While I initially thought this thread should be under Canadian politics, it was obviously a wise choice putting it under Chatter.

        :stars:


Update: ....and then it gets moved to Canadian Politics.  :-[

 

[dapaterson]

Churchill was never a senior officer, he retired as a Major.

Not to be pedantic, but, by definition, a Major is a Senior Officer.

 

[jollyjacktar]

The Snowbirds just flew past our building on the way to Parliament Hill, a short time ago.  One of the officers here commented "there goes our Defence Minister.  He must be flying the lead plane".  Man oh man, he won't be living this down for a long time to come, if ever. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Not to be pedantic, but, by definition, a Major is a Senior Officer.

Agreed.  They were considered "Field Grade" officers at that rank and above when I was an MP in Calgary.  Any investigations that involved them were not dealt with by Patrols.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Snowbirds just flew past our building on the way to Parliament Hill, a short time ago.  One of the officers here commented "there goes our Defence Minister.  He must be flying the lead plane".  Man oh man, he won't be living this down for a long time to come, if ever.

They should have spelled out 'Memento Mori' over the Hill.... just to keep egos in check

 

[FJAG]

Not to be pedantic, but, by definition, a Major is a Senior Officer.

I was going to do a "one upmanship" on that and say that majors are "Field Officers" but when I did my fact double check I see that once again I'm out of date. Senior Officer it is.  ;D

:cheers:

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Not to be pedantic, but, by definition, a Major is a Senior Officer.

For the purpose of elaborating I define Officers in to three grades:

1.  Junior - Lt/Capt
2.  Field - Maj/LCol/Col
3.  Senior - Brigadier and above

Just because the Canadian Army arbitrarily decides they will change something doesn't make it actually so.

We decide to do things all the time that nobody else does, such as remove combat support from all infantry battalions (making them little more than well armed constabulary). 

Yesterday I had to listen to someone profess the uselessness of attack helicopters because you know.... Swarm drones are the next big thing!

How about renting supply ships from the Chilean Navy, all part of our global engagement plan I'm sure  ;D

i think what you are describing is the laurentian Lieliberal elites vice Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex.

I was making a comparison to the US system of democracy.  Frankly, it's more dangerous in Canada because our Executive and Legislative bodies are one and the same. 

Going back to FJAG said earlier about great leaders, the ones he mentioned were all American.

In the US system of government, the Executive and Legislative bodies are separate, President's run the country (which includes control of the Armed Forces) but they do not make laws.  The President is also the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces while in Canada it's Her Majesty thru the GG. 

Officers in Canada swear allegiance to the crown; however, they are also expected to answer to the government as civilian control of the Armed forces is a key principle in civil-military relations.

And this applies to the statements I made above:

The problem facing our Armed Forces is that the factor of civilian control has been misused due to the inherent weaknesses in our political system.  1.
A CinC who really isn't. 2.  A dysfunctional upper house 3.  Combined executive/legislative government without checks and balances (see #1 and #2)

Two types of civilian control - Objective and Subjective (first yielding positive results/second yielding negative results).  Our civil-military relations in this country are subjective because we don't have the following:

1.  recognition and approval from political leaders to the professional authorities and autonomy of the military.

2.  minimal intervention of the military in politics and of politicians in military affairs.

Having formers officers serving in roles such as MND only exacerbates this.  Gordon O'Connor butting heads with Rick Hillier comes to mind.  A politician telling a four star General what to do because he used to be a one star and knows best.  In spite of the fact that he never achieved the professional level of competency in the Armed Forces.  It diminishes the credibility of the profession of arms.

Note:  I'm not critiquing our system of government, I am critiquing how it has the potential to undermine the ability to generate a proper professional military.

 

[Lightguns]

American system, in Canada we have General Officers (Col to Gen), Senior Officers (LCol and Maj) and Subordinate Officers (2Lt to Capt), ohhh and Officer Cadets.

 

[FJAG]

Still disagree with ya HB although this one has given me pause:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/01/politics/kfile-trump-army-secretary-pick-theory-of-evolution/index.html

Seems Green went through West Point and was an infantry officer for a number of years before being selected for training as a medical doctor in the army. After twenty years in the military (including West Point) he retired to civilian life and to become a State Senator in Tennessee and a strict creationist.  :facepalm:

He's Trump's nominee for Secretary of the Army.  :brickwall:

:cheers:

 

[Journeyman]

For the purpose of elaborating I define Officers in to three grades:
1.  Junior - Lt/Capt
2.  Field - Maj/LCol/Col
3.  Senior - Brigadier and above

Just because the Canadian Army arbitrarily decides they will change something doesn't make it actually so.

Ahhhh....

Yet, you also said...with no small amount of repetition... that there's no such thing as a retired officer, because the letter of the law says something about only Queen Liz can turn the commissioning scroll off.

How does one decide which faults can be passed...or which rocks don't need painting...or far that matter, which chicken really isn't that sexually attractive?
:dunno:



ps - for disclosure, until this morning I actually believed I was a civie.  :'(
I know my barber probably assumed that I'm a civie -- or dead -- because she hasn't seen me in three months.  Of course, I've not yet found a need to say "Guy with Commission (Ret'd)."  I better start getting some f*cking salutes then! 

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  in Canada we have General Officers (Col BGen to Gen), Senior Officers (LCol and Maj Maj to Col) and Subordinate Junior Officers (2Lt to Capt), ohhh and Subordinate Officers (Officer Cadets).

There, FTFY

and with a handy diagram  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/honours-history-badges-insignia/rank-army.page

 

[Lightguns]

There, FTFY

and with a handy diagram  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/honours-history-badges-insignia/rank-army.page

Merci, I no longer have access to the diagram....

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Ahhhh....

Yet, you also said...with no small amount of repetition... that there's no such thing as a retired officer, because the letter of the law says something about only Queen Liz can turn the commissioning scroll off.

How does one decide which faults can be passed...or which rocks don't need painting...or far that matter, which chicken really isn't that sexually attractive?
:dunno:


ps - for disclosure, until this morning I actually believed I was a civie.  :'(
I know my barber probably assumed that I'm a civie -- or dead -- because she hasn't seen me in three months.  Of course, I've not yet found a need to say "Guy with Commission (Ret'd)."  I better start getting some f*cking salutes then! 

You're right I did say that and I meant it.  Just because you release from the service doesn't mean you lose rank or expectations. 

As the Commissioning scroll states:

You are therefore carefully and diligently to discharge your Duty as such in the Rank of .............. or in such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to promote or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions as may be prescribed by us to exercise and well discipline both the Inferior Officers and Non-Commissioned Members serving under you

 

Yellow - You will hold a rank of XXXX and may be promoted to XXXX

Red - You will be directed by the Crown when they want (i.e. prescribed by us)

If you're promoted to Major, you're a Major for life unless you're demoted or promoted and you can be called upon by the Crown at any time to serve them.

I know, I know, this is all very pedantic to you and everyone.

However, in politics and policy, being pedantic matters.