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Deconstructing "Progressive " thought

Bird_Gunner45 said:
So, does the human failure of the messenger make the message any less important to those who support it, or any less valid?  If so, than we should all be jumping off the global warming band wagon, since it's biggest spokesman, Mr. Al Gore, has been noted as a huge hypocrite, living in a house that used 20 x the power of the average american household.

http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2007/02/27/al-gores-carbon-footprint/

Oooh, about that, not exactly true - or at least, a rather horrible mischaracterization.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/gorehome.asp

Bird_Gunner45 said:
I think this demonstrates well the original point... when your poor part time conservative family rights spokesman/part time closet homosexual is caught, he is automatically a hypocrite, but when the same is found on the liberal side, it's always just an attack.

Except there's a difference - was the hypothetical liberal in this case someone who's publicly denounced homosexuality?  Was the hypothetical conservative?  It the former is true, than that person is indeed a hypocrite, if it isn't, then they are not.

 
One cannot make the case that religion is the exclusive font of morality.

It is likely that some Christian religious people are moral and others are amoral and, indeed, immoral. Ditto for Buddhists, Daoists, Jews, Muslims and so on - in precisely the same proportions, not even the tiniest iota of variance - because they are all human with precisely equal human values.

Confucians are also moral, amoral and immoral in precisely the same proportions and, since Confucianism is not a religion, we may say, with the same degree of likelihood, that religion makes no difference to morality.
 
And yet religion, like its secular counterpart "the law", both sprigs of the same tree, act as a conservative "drag chain" on the populace.  If society is made of people and people are fallible then society is fallible.  If priests and lawyers are people and people are fallible then their utterances are fallible.

I believe in pragmatic accomodation and so I believe in democracy as a means to managing violent disputes.  Equally I believe that democrats burn witches, stone infidels and guillotine academics and aristocrats.  Therefore democrats need to be curbed with a drag chain.  See the above.

Unfortunately the drag chain is flawed because it was created by people and equally it can used by people to justify roasting Cathars and starving Russian farmers.  From time to time the chain needs to be reworked.  And its application is debated daily in 6,000,000,000 brains.

Despite that it is appropriate that there be a sound "immutable" standard by which actions can be compared,  even if the standard becomes dated.  It is useful to maintain knowledge of how far and how fast you are moving and in what direction.  Then you can make "reasonable" conclusions on a course of action.

Personally I find comfort in a deity, just as I find comfort in the gold standard.  I find comfort in that so many others also find comfort in the same standards.  It makes it easier for me to understand their standards and thus easier for me to predict their actions.

Will they disappoint me and frustrate me?  Absolutely.  As Argyll points out they are equally human.

However I would rather deal with someone whose ethics are measurable and holds themself, however imperfectly, to an external standard, than to deal with someone who has no standard but their own and is capable of rationalizing any action as appropriate.

 
Kirkhill said:
However I would rather deal with someone whose ethics are measurable and holds themself, however imperfectly, to an external standard, than to deal with someone who has no standard but their own and is capable of rationalizing any action as appropriate.

I don't think I personally know any examples of the latter, except that it sounds like a good description of a sociopath.
 
Redeye: How about giving us your concept of ethics and the standards you abide by while leading acting as a Pl Comd of soldiers. I don't give a shidt about your business/personal way of doing things.
 
Rifleman62 said:
Redeye: How about giving us your concept of ethics and the standards you abide by while leading acting as a Pl Comd of soldiers. I don't give a shidt about your business/personal way of doing things.

Of what particular relevance is any of that?  However, I'll try.

Ethics?  Simple - do no harm - or where no prospect exists of that, do the least harm possible.  Act with integrity at all times - say what you mean, mean what you say, and hold yourself to it. Have the courage to make the difficult decisions and accept responsibility for them.  Don't make decisions based on personal comforts or wants, that is, remember "mission - men - self" - and so on.

Not one of them derives from, or requires any sort of "deity".

And there's no difference between the point of view I have wearing green, or wearing a suit and tie at my civilian job, or just out doing whatever - I take this stuff pretty seriously in all cases.
 
Redeye said:
It comes down to this - I respect you have the right - the freedom - to believe whatever you want about the existence of the deities, about moral prinicples, and so on as I would expect my freedom to reject the idea of deity as well.  The key to it, in my view, is that so long as what you believe doesn't in any way impact my life directly, than it doesn't matter particularly.  What riles me is when religious ideas are used to impose a particular set of views on society which are to the detriment of that freedom in others.  That's why I don't want religion in classrooms, I don't want it being set on a pedestal equivalent to science, etc etc, or in any way being promoted (even tacitly) by the state.

So you respect the right for religious people to have religion as long as it doesn't impact your life directly?  It's an interesting, but not uncommon, hypocritical argument.  What about the rights of the people who believe in this stuff and want to be taught it, or have it taught to their children?  Seemingly in your argument, the assumption is that what you believe is reality, and that the religious types are cute little silly people to be tolerated, but not given any say in society.  It would seem to me that if you believed in true education than you would welcome the teaching of both view points in an enlightened, reasoned manner, to the youth of today in order for them to decide which view point they want to adopt. 

Also, as for Al Gore, it seems that he had some excuses, and upon being caught, quickly changed path.  Here's a list of some more liberal hypocrites, and there are many more where those came from.  The point is- liberals are no more and no less hypocritcal (see case in point you arguing against religion in the classroom because you want to ensure that a particular view point isn't imposed, namely, the one you dont agree with) than their conservative counterparts.

http://listverse.com/2009/05/02/10-cases-of-liberal-hypocrisy/



 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
So you respect the right for religious people to have religion as long as it doesn't impact your life directly?  It's an interesting, but not uncommon, hypocritical argument.  What about the rights of the people who believe in this stuff and want to be taught it, or have it taught to their children?  Seemingly in your argument, the assumption is that what you believe is reality, and that the religious types are cute little silly people to be tolerated, but not given any say in society.  It would seem to me that if you believed in true education than you would welcome the teaching of both view points in an enlightened, reasoned manner, to the youth of today in order for them to decide which view point they want to adopt. 

Also, as for Al Gore, it seems that he had some excuses, and upon being caught, quickly changed path.  Here's a list of some more liberal hypocrites, and there are many more where those came from.  The point is- liberals are no more and no less hypocritcal (see case in point you arguing against religion in the classroom because you want to ensure that a particular view point isn't imposed, namely, the one you dont agree with) than their conservative counterparts.

http://listverse.com/2009/05/02/10-cases-of-liberal-hypocrisy/

  If parents want their children growing up to believe the Earth is six thousand years old and we lived with dinosaurs than they have every right to believe what they want.  Pseudo-science though does not belong in the classroom.  There isn't a single piece of evidence that supports intelligent design.    Intelligent design and creationism have been all but rejected by the scientific community and therefore shouldn't even be entertained in educational institutes. 
 
TheHead said:
  If parents want their children growing up to believe the Earth is six thousand years old and we lived with dinosaurs than they have every right to believe what they want.  Pseudo-science though does not belong in the classroom.  There isn't a single piece of evidence that supports intelligent design.    Intelligent design and creationism have been all but rejected by the scientific community and therefore shouldn't even be entertained in educational institutes.

And you truly believe that.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
So you respect the right for religious people to have religion as long as it doesn't impact your life directly?  It's an interesting, but not uncommon, hypocritical argument.  What about the rights of the people who believe in this stuff and want to be taught it, or have it taught to their children? 

The allowing of people to think or do what they want as long as it doesn't impact one's own life (ie - causes no harm) is actually a pretty sound philosophy. I see no hypocrisy with that viewpoint. Teaching religion in a public school means forcing a religious viewpoint on people, which is different than not teaching any religion at all. Public schools do not teach "There is no God."

Parents are free to conduct religious education on their own or through their church. Parents can send their kids to religious schools. This costs more, but it is a choice that they make. What I would not support is making religious education part of general curriculum, which would force it on people who may not want it.

Schools should indeed teach competing views, but those views should have some grounding in science to include the social sciences.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
So you respect the right for religious people to have religion as long as it doesn't impact your life directly?  It's an interesting, but not uncommon, hypocritical argument.  What about the rights of the people who believe in this stuff and want to be taught it, or have it taught to their children?  Seemingly in your argument, the assumption is that what you believe is reality, and that the religious types are cute little silly people to be tolerated, but not given any say in society.  It would seem to me that if you believed in true education than you would welcome the teaching of both view points in an enlightened, reasoned manner, to the youth of today in order for them to decide which view point they want to adopt. 

There's nothing hypocritical about that at all.  If people want to teach their kids about a religion, fine.  They can do that.  But not in public schools, not in any sort of forum in which anyone else is forced to be exposed to it.  That doesn't mean public schools should "teach atheism" - it means the subject matter doesn't belong there, period, except perhaps in the context of social studies (like comparative cultural studies, I took such a class in high school and it was very, very interesting).  If doesn't mean censoring people or making things such that people who want to explore a particular religion can't.  I don't see any benefit, particularly, from that, since advocating that would indeed be a hypocritical position.

Bird_Gunner45 said:
Also, as for Al Gore, it seems that he had some excuses, and upon being caught, quickly changed path.  Here's a list of some more liberal hypocrites, and there are many more where those came from.  The point is- liberals are no more and no less hypocritcal (see case in point you arguing against religion in the classroom because you want to ensure that a particular view point isn't imposed, namely, the one you dont agree with) than their conservative counterparts.

http://listverse.com/2009/05/02/10-cases-of-liberal-hypocrisy/

I don't seem to recall that I ever did assert that "liberals" had any less propensity to be hypocritical than "conservatives".
 
Tango2Bravo said:
Schools should indeed teach competing views, but those views should have some grounding in science to include the social sciences.

Exactly, and that is why creationism and its cloaked analogue "intelligent design" have no place in schools.  Your "to include the social sciences" would to me say it could be taught in a social science context (ie in a world religions comparative type class as I took in high school), but not taught as "science" in the sense of biology etc.
 
Technoviking said:
Anyway, there you go.  All this to say that I, a thinking rational being, think that there is some sort of deliberate order to the universe, and this was caused by a greater rational, thinking being.

See, that's a position I can't really complain about - you believe what you believe, and that's fine.  Does it impact my life directly in any adverse way?  Nope.  Not at all. Therefore, I can't see any reason to have a problem with it.

The Roman Catholic Church has been involved in a lot of interesting discussion on this very topic, and certainly, as far as religions go, it's probably a leader in advancing science.  Of course, that's not always been the case as we all know from history (and Monty Python sketches).  However, lately that changed, CBC's "Ideas" recently did a piece on the very, very advanced observatory they own in Arizona (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Advanced_Technology_Telescope).  They seem to look at things with the idea that Steven Jay Gould labelled non-overlapping magisteria, that you can examine the religious/philosophical ideas about the "why" and so on regardless of what science says about the "how" and "when".
 
Scandals really do bring out the worst in people:

http://dailycaller.com/2011/06/12/rehab-for-all/

Rehab All Around! It turns out Rep. Anthony Weiner isn’t the only one entering rehab in the wake of his sexting-and-lying scandal. At least three other figures in the affair have followed his example and voluntarily entered 12-step recovery programs.

Markos Moulitsas, founder of the Daily Kos, said he would request a leave of absence from his popular group blog to learn what he called “partisan aggression management.” ”Twice now–with John Edwards and Anthony Weiner–I’ve defended pretty obviously guilty Democrats by approving nasty arguments attacking their critics–arguments that turned out to be wrong. I thought I was fighting back, but I brought nothing but humiliation and disgrace to myself and my party.  The truth comes out eventually. I hadn’t taken that into account. I have departed this morning to seek professional treatment to focus on becoming a better blogger and healthier person.”

Only a few hours later, Daily Beast writer Howard Kurtz issued this statement:

“My name is Howard Kurtz, and I’m a hack. I produce lots of copy. I meet my deadlines. But I’m sloppy and jump at the first available thought that will get me over. After pooh-poohing the Weiner story because it came from those amateur right wing bloggers I jumped at the idea that an ethics investigation would buy Weiner time to save his seat–which if I’d thought for two more seconds I might have realized was wishful thinking. But I didn’t have two more seconds. I’ve got mouths to feed! This web stuff happens so fast anyway  I feel like I’m always just reacting. At this point I don’t see how I could get by without my substantial salary or the CNN show that made me famous, and as a result I instinctively say things that will please the media executives who pay me and the fellow journalistic professionals who all say I’m worth more! Is it possible that they only say those nice things because they want to be on my show? Are they dissing me behind my back? I need some time without distraction to think through these issues.”

Said a friend, behind Kurtz’s back, “He’s such a hack. It’s clear he needs professional intervention. I’m glad he is seeking it.”

Coming amid these rapid developments, the decision of legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin to go on hiatus at CNN was almost overlooked. Toobin appeared on his network early in the Weiner controversy to declare that it was just ”a lighthearted story … a silly little thing that happened.” Observers noted that this wasn’t the first time Toobin had rationalized cheating:  His book , A Vast Conspiracy, had slimed reporter Michael Isikoff in the course of attempting to argue that, as Toobin said in an interview, President Clinton’s infidelity was a ”completely bogus” story because a politician’s sex life “tells you absolutely nothing about their performance” in office.  Toobin’s friends say he began a painful reassessment when he read page 49 of his book–which attributes a “catastrophic” decision made by President Clinton to ”the complex dynamics of the relationship between husband and wife”–and realized those complex dynamics can be affected by things like having sex with other people behind your spouse’s back. While in rehab, the New Yorker and CNN contributor is expected to work through these issues. He has apologized to Isikoff and others.

“We love Jeffrey and hope to have him back soon,” said a colleague.

[None of this really happened, right?-ed Right Lawyers wanted to make sure-ed.]

P.S.: Conflict of interest disclosures, which are almost always more interesting than the pieces themselves, can be found here and here and here.

P.P.S.: The “it’s only sex” Weiner defense and the “he’s seeking therapy for his illness” defense sit uncomfortably together, no? I think maybe you have to pick one or the other!

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/06/12/rehab-for-all/#ixzz1PBhN30sC

While the piece is a satire, the sentiment outlined is really a precis of what actually happened in these various cases. The cognotive dissonance caused by attempting to depict black as white must be diffficult to handle.
 
A more complete look at the Liberal Party president's speech and its meaning:

http://diogenesborealis.blogspot.com/2011/06/inside-liberal-hive-mind.html

Inside the Liberal hive-mind
Liberal Party of Canada president Alfred Apps gave a speech on June 9 in which he outlined his vision of the future. If anyone needed further proof of the ideological bankruptcy of the former Natural Governing Party, they should look no further.

Mr. Apps begins with a description of the party's roots in the classical liberalism of the 18th and 19th centuries:

The Liberal Party of Canada's core assumptions in politics are about power. We believe that the inexorable progress of mankind, the constant expansion of freedom, demands the ever more democratic disbursal of power. That the primary ongoing role of the state should be to transfer power from the powerful to the less powerful. And because we believe in the primacy of the individual, we think of that power being placed in the hands of individuals to the maximum extent possible.

He then proceeds to negate that very freedom that classical liberalism stands for. Are free individuals really the fundamental units of Canadian society? Not so much, according to Apps. Individuals are important insomuch as they are members of various "marginalized and ignored" groups, which he suggests should be the focus of future Liberal policy:

Just as we need to bring Liberals who have been marginalized and ignored back into the life of our party with a massive outreach exercise, we need to bring Canadians whose agenda has been marginalized and ignored by the current government back into the centre of our political life. This means our aboriginal population, especially the young. Women, especially single mothers and working women with families. New Canadians. The urban poor. Rural and remote Canadians. Those who are fighting for a clean environment and against climate change. People suffering from mental health issues. Volunteer caregivers. All Canadians who believe that Canada's international mission can no longer be undermined by its reputation abroad for how its treats the poorest of citizens within its own borders.

What policies, then, would the future Liberal Party enact to reach out to the powerless? Well, amending the Constitution to include "positive rights" in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, for starters:

Two hundred years after the American Revolution, and more than a century after Confederation, under prime minister Pierre Trudeau, Canada followed the American example and, in 1982, engrafted a Charter of Rights and Freedoms into the Canadian Constitution. Some of these new rights were positive rights -the right to minority language schooling, for example. In order to more properly empower Canadians, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms should be amended to include more positive rights for economic, cultural and social freedom.

As Franklin Delano Roosevelt said, "We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. Necessitous men are not free men." He proposed, but was never able to enact, a bill of rights that would have a guaranteed all Americans' health care, education, housing, and income and retirement security. Roosevelt died a year after making this revolutionary proposal, and the plan died with him.

Canada should take up where he left off, and we have a home-grown example of how to do it. One of the few jurisdictions to have accorded positive economic, social and cultural rights to citizens was Quebec, under the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms enacted by the Bourassa provincial Liberal government in 1975. It guaranteed a range of rights including the right to child care, public education and environmental security. This law only has quasi-constitutional status as it is amendable solely by vote of the Quebec National Assembly. Still, it provides a uniquely Canadian benchmark worthy of reinforcement as we push toward a new frontier of Liberalism.

This is a breathtaking suggestion and, coming from someone who purports to believe in the "primacy of the individual", an amazing example of cognitive dissonance.

Adding "positive rights" like child care, environmental security, housing, and income and retirement security to the Constitution is the exact opposite of empowering individuals. Enshrining them in the Charter creates an obligation for the state to provide these benefits. Massive government bureaucracies would by necessity need to be set up to monitor and run gargantuan state programs for universal child care and housing, and all the other rights suddenly guaranteed by the Constitution. This would remove any incentive for individuals to provide these things for themselves, or for corporations to offer them as benefits to their employees.

It would also create the necessity for pervasive income-redistribution schemes to pay for it all, since individuals would have no incentive any more to pay for them. We would truly be living in a cradle-to-grave nanny state where every aspect of a citizens life is monitored and managed, and income inequalities are taxed away to "empower the powerless", primacy of the individual be damned. What better way to limit the rights of the individual than to take away his income? And yet, Apps suggests that this can all be done with "fiscal prudence within a mixed market economy in a global marketplace". Nonsense. This vision of Canada's future is only possible in a command economy supported by massive government spending and ruinous taxation. In other words, we would become like post-war Europe and eventually face the decline and collapse that is now unfolding in Greece, Portugal and Spain.

If this is the party president's vision of the future of Canada, then the Liberal Party of Canada is truly a spent force. A party that still worships Franklin Roosevelt and Pierre Trudeau while at the same time claiming to be the guardian of individual liberty can't be taken very seriously.
 
Further to this post about the Socialist Caucus:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/64647/post-1043059.html#msg1043059

And this quote:

That's one caucus within the party, I doubt most regular members (much less most of their candidates) would agree with any of that nonsense.Report

There is this

Earlier on Sunday, New Democrats rejected a proposal to ban merger talks with the federal Liberal party after a heated exchange on the floor of its national convention in Vancouver Sunday.

Members voted 645 to 464 to reject the motion after two rounds of voting and a standing vote.

And on the testy question of whether the party should scrap the word “socialism” from its constitution, members deferred the debate by referring the proposal to its executive council for further study.

NDP President Brian Topp suggested referring the motion after passionate pleas on both sides of the issue by NDP MP Pat Martin and Barry Weisleder, the chair of the party’s socialist caucus.

“We want a modern, progressive, majority, social democratic government,” Mr. Martin said, after describing the NDP’s “socialist” tag as outdated.

Some in the crowd booed Mr. Martin and cheered Mr. Weisleder, who urged delegates to vote against the proposal suggesting Tommy Douglas would be rolling in his grave.

“He would say: No! No! No!”

Changing the words would get rid of the party’s socialist roots and was only being done tell the Canadian establishment the NDP would not rock the boat, Weisleder said.

The debate over the nixing merger talks with the Liberals exposed large cleavages between the party’s base.

Based on ER Campbell's appreciation of the electorate and Frank Graves comments about Liberals being more likely to run to the NDP than run to the Conservatives, as well as a traditional NDP voter share of 20% I make the following assertion:

Its all good party - 40%
Conservatively inclined - 25%
Stark Staring Loonie Leftists 50% of 20% of 60% or 6% (and all in the NDP)
Liberally inclined - 29% (of whom 6% reside in the NDP)

And then there's Quebec.............

The problem for the NDP is that up to 50% of their party is marching to a drummer that 94% of Canadians don't hear (outside of Quebec - when the wind sets fair from the South East and the moon is in the right house).
 
VDH nailing it, as usual. Notice how many of the "socialist" set don't seem to mind living in mansions, being chauferred in limosines (unless the optics of riding a bike to work is to your electoral advantage  ;)), and otherwise partaking of the high life. In the former USSR the same things happend for the nomenklatura, even Orwell was astute enough to recognize the lay of the land (most notably with the description of how the "Inner Party" lived in 1984). Pick your own example from history, all notionally socialist regimes are the same:

http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/there-are-no-socialists/?print=1

There Are No Socialists
Posted By Victor Davis Hanson On June 25, 2011 @ 6:56 pm In Uncategorized | 100 Comments

Are There Really Socialists?

Two unconnected developments were announced this past week. President Obama is releasing oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, despite the absence of a global embargo or horrific natural disaster — and despite a litany of assertions from 2008 that drilling and increased supply might only have a marginal effect on prices.

Like the sudden Afghan withdrawal announcement, the tapping is largely explained by political worries about reelection, as in increasing oil supplies to lower gas prices by election time — and thus avoiding campaign ads equating Obama’s opposition to drilling with high prices at the 2012 pump.

In a second piece of news, the Europeans seem to be winning far more plane orders than Boeing. One wonders whether that fact is remotely connected with airlines’ collective worries about obtaining orders on time and as specified — as in uncertainty whether Obama’s NLRB ruling [1] that attempted to shut down a nearly $1 billion new aircraft line in South Carolina translates into something like “who knows what those Americans are doing next?”

All this raises some questions. The strangest things about the global statist crack-up are socialists’ unhappiness with their socialist utopia, and their subsequent efforts to avoid the consequences of the very redistributive state that they themselves once so gladly crafted.

Greece is the locus classicus. Why are the Greeks protesting? Against whom? They obtained long ago the promised bloated sector and high taxes that all schemed to avoid. Their alma mater EU is hardly a demonic capitalist-run plutocracy, but a kindred socialist state. Is Greece an oil producer, industrial powerhouse, high-tech innovator — anything that might explain the sort of upscale life, modern infrastructure, legions of Mercedeses, and plush second homes that one began to see in Greece after 1985?

In truth, socialist Greeks are furious that they have impoverished themselves and demand that private money and far harder-working Germans bail them out — but why so, when socialism should not need outside capitalist-generated dollars? Could not the Greeks, Soviet style, set up a Cuban collective, and adjust their lifestyles (there goes Kolonaki culture) to their means, living in an opportunity of result utopia with a huge public sector, more siestas, high but ignored taxes — with a collective good riddance to those awful intrusive German bankers?

Here at home, Obama got his ObamaCare. Why, then, did he grant hundreds of exemptions — many to northern California liberals? Should they instead not have lined up to volunteer to implement such a wonderful, long-needed entitlement?

He said energy would rightly sky-rocket, given his determination to curb fossil fuel production (cf. “bankrupt” coal companies). Why then is Obama concerned that gas hit $4; is not such a high price a welcomed retardant to burning hot fuels? The higher the gas prices, the more that subsidized wind and solar power, and electric cars are attractive, and thus the more we enjoy “sustainable” power. Right? Am I missing something about this desire within our grasp of “living within our means”?

Obama enjoyed big majorities in both houses of Congress; and on the campaign trail he had promised a de facto amnesty under the euphemism of “comprehensive immigration reform.” So why did he not grant such exemptions, and absorb 11, 15, or 20 million new “citizens” from Oaxaca? Is not that the point of amnesty, to welcome in new constituencies who will remember a benefactor at the polls?

We have heard that taxes, more taxes, and more taxes are the cure for the massive deficits, run up by out of control spending. OK, fine. But why then does multimillionaire John Kerry go to great lengths to avoid taxes on his yacht (why a luxury yacht when so many have so little?); why are redistributive overseers like Timothy Geithner, Eric Holder, Tom Daschle, Charles Rangel, and Hilda Solis either late or delinquent in paying the federal, state, or local governments what they owe? Were not high taxes on the upper incomes like themselves the point of it all? Should not they pay all they can to ensure that their brethren receive needed entitlements? I thought Bono would lead an international effort of multimillionaire rock stars to relocate to socialist states like Ireland or Greece, so that they might gladly pay 75% of their incomes (which at “some point” they had enough of) to help others closer to home. Why instead is he fleeing [2] to low-tax nations? Did not such socialists have enough money by now without undermining the socialist state?

This discussion is, of course, a belabored example of why and how socialists do not like socialism. Indeed, statism is not a desired outcome, but rather more a strategy for obtaining power or winning acclaim as one of the caring, by offering the narcotic of promising millions something free at the expense of others who must be seen as culpable and obligated to fund it — entitlements fueled by someone else’s money that enfeebled the state, but in the process extended power, influence, and money to a technocratic class of overseers who are exempt from the very system that they have advocated.

So what is socialism? It is a sort of modern version of Louis XV’s “Après moi, le déluge”  – an unsustainable Ponzi scheme in which elite overseers, for the duration of their own lives, enjoy power, influence, and gratuities by implementing a system that destroys the sort of wealth for others that they depend upon for themselves.

Once the individual develops a dependency on food stamps, free medical care, subsidized housing, all sorts of disability or unemployment compensation, education credits, grants, and zero-interest loans — the entire American version of the European socialist breadbasket — then expectations for far more always keep rising, with a commensurate plethora of new justifications, usually in the realm of someone else having more than the recipient, always unjustly so. The endangered aid recipient is always seen as being pushed off a cliff in a wheel chair — therefore, “they” can afford to give “me” more; things are not “fair”; there is no “equality.”

Cutting back $2,500 a month in combined benefits and subsidies to $2300 a month is always seen as far more heartless and cruel than not in the first place giving someone without subsidies a mere $200 a month. For every dollar taken, two are demanded. And that creates a powerful constituency for whom the shrillest rhetoric of oppression is, well, never too shrill. Revolutions are not fueled by the very poor seeking their daily bread, but by those on entitlements that revolt at the thought of less to come. A rioting Greek today is far better off than his parents in 1973 when I first arrived in the country; and he would remain far better off even under an “austerity” plan. But his expectations have soared geometrically with each euro received, and he now has convinced himself that not to have more is to have nothing.

History is not kind to such collective states of mind. Pay an Athenian in the fifth century BC a subsidy to go to the theater; and in the fourth century BC he is demanding such pay to vote in the assembly as well — and there is not to be a third century free democratic polis. Extend to a Roman in the first century BC a small grain dole, and by the late first century AD he cannot live without a big dole, free entertainment in a huge new Coliseum, and disbursements of free coined money. Let the emperor Justinian try cutting back the bloated bureaucracy in sixth century AD Constantinople and he wins the Nika riots that almost destroy a civilization from within even as it is beset by hosts of foreign enemies.

Social Security started out as a few dollars a month to the elderly, in their last two or three years of life, to ensure that they could feed themselves without the indignity of borrowing from their children. It has morphed into someone living well for twenty years on far more money taken than was put in — or a young family with a dyslexic child on “disability” for life. To cut any for the latter would cause far more riot and mayhem than not to have given the former anything in the first place — despite the fact that the 21st century recipient was far less needy and got far more than the early 20th century recipient who needed more and got less.

What stops socialism?

I fear bankruptcy alone.

Who are socialists?

There are none. Only technocratic overseers who wish to give someone else’s money to others as a means of winning capitalist-style lifestyles and power for themselves — in a penultimate cycle of unsustainable spending. When this latest attempt at statism is over, Barack Obama will enjoy a sort of Clintonism, a globe-trotting post officium lifestyle of multimillion dollar honoraria to fund a lifestyle analogous to “two Americas” John Edwards, “earth in the balance” Al Gore, a tax-exempt yachting John Kerry, a revolving-door Citibank grandee like Peter Orszag, or a socialist Strauss-Kahn in $20,000 suits doling out billions to the “poor.”

That is just the way it has been and will always be.

Out West Update

I thank readers for security tips in the aftermath of an awful month of burglaries and thefts, and plan to implement many of them, since one cannot flee and give in to the tides of lawlessness. Two postscripts: this week Fresno was declared the car theft capital of the United States, and Selma, two miles away, was found to be a breeding ground (as in specimens found) for the West Nile Virus carrying mosquito. So I am wondering whether the steering wheel “club” of the 1980s is on its way back, along with DDT? (PPS: I remember my grandfather’s stories that there was out here malaria on occasion in the late 1890s before the advent of the Mosquito Abatement District and pesticides, and horse thievery was once epidemic: so are we postmoderns becoming premodern, as 2011 in decline resembling 1890 on the upswing?

PJM Flashback: Laughing at the contradictions of Socialism in America [3]

Article printed from Works and Days: http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson

URL to article: http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/there-are-no-socialists/

URLs in this post:

[1] NLRB ruling: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/boeing-vs-the-nlrb-a-naked-power-grab-by-radical-pro-unionists/
[2] fleeing: http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/06/25/u-pay-your-tax-2/
[3] Laughing at the contradictions of Socialism in America: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/laughing-at-the-contradictions-of-socialism-in-america/
 
While dumping on organized religions as the font of morality, most people rather impressively miss the point that organized religion historically has been the chief crucible in which morality is fired and the fountain from which it has issued.  Criticizing the process as not being error-free is trivial and inane.  There have been many more steps forward than back.

On the one hand, if a man believes in a religion you can instruct him in what is right by referring to scriptures which say so.  He has faith, and will accept an article of faith (even while he has trouble sticking to it).

On the other hand, if a man believes in no religion you can instruct him in what is right by referring him to [insert irrefutable proof of desired moral and ethical principles here, when you find them].

Now, which of those is more useful (practical) for maintaining a sane and just society?

Parenthetically, children have a right to an education.  Parents have the right to determine that education.  (If you don't believe me, refer to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.)  Whichever levels of government are responsible for education should provide a block grant for each child, to be spent in the school system of the parents' choice regardless whether it is run publicly or privately.
 
On the one hand, if a man believes in a religion you can instruct him in what is right by referring to scriptures which say so.  He has faith, and will accept an article of faith (even while he has trouble sticking to it).

On the other hand, if a man believes in no religion you can instruct him in what is right by referring him to [insert irrefutable proof of desired moral and ethical principles here, when you find them].

Now, which of those is more useful (practical) for maintaining a sane and just society?

If you look at the most religious region on Earth right now, the Middle East, you would have trouble characterizing it as sane and just.  On the contrary, the fervent religious beliefs of people in that region lead to an almost unfathomable level of human suffering. Especially among women subject to harsh religious laws.

 
toyotatundra said:
If you look at the most religious region on Earth right now, the Middle East, you would have trouble characterizing it as sane and just.  On the contrary, the fervent religious beliefs of people in that region lead to an almost unfathomable level of human suffering. Especially among women subject to harsh religious laws.


But the problem is that many of the bad undesirable things you ascribe to religion are, in fact, cultural artifacts and have nothing at all to so with any particular religion.

Islam isn't a problem - but it has problems that are rooted, deeply, in North African, Arab, Persian and West Asian cultures which are badly in need of an enlightenment which, likely, in my opinion needs to be preceded by a religious reformation.
 
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