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Debating: Tone and Content on Army.ca

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which are, in my opinion, often tabou here

Maybe it IS taboo. Because it is a PRIVATE site! NONE of us have ANY rights here. I don't know why that is so hard to swallow for some people. I would not go to your house and tell you that you are folding your towels wrong. Or disciplining your children excessively. Or grooming your dog improperly. I would not go to your office and question every policy that I disagreed with or that didn't make any sense to me.

My God this gets exasperating
 
muskrat89 said:
Maybe it IS taboo. Because it is a PRIVATE site! NONE of us have ANY rights here. I don't know why that is so hard to swallow for some people. I would not go to your house and tell you that you are folding your towels wrong. Or disciplining your children excessively. Or grooming your dog improperly. I would not go to your office and question every policy that I disagreed with or that didn't make any sense to me.

My God this gets exasperating

Maybe we need to clarify, then, what the mission of this site is because my understanding was that it was meant to be a resource for potential recruits, soldiers, and veterans to learn from co-workers from past and present. Is this site meant for ALL soldiers? I hope it is but there's nothing that says it has to be. It would be good to know, all the same.
 
Maybe we need to clarify, then, what the mission of this site is because my understanding was that it was meant to be a resource for potential recruits, soldiers, and veterans to learn from co-workers from past and present. Is this site meant for ALL soldiers?

1) Where did you read that?

2) It is not limited to soldiers

From the Conduct Guidelines (that everyone si supposed to be familiar with)
Army.ca is an Unofficial Site

Army.ca is in no way connected to DND or the CF. Army.ca does not represent policy of the Canadian Forces in any way, and does not claim to do so. Opinions expressed on these pages are the sole responsibility of the individual posters, who may or may not be members of the Canadian Forces or other military or civilian organizations.

Also from the Conduct Guidelines:
If you feel you have been treated inappropriately, please send me (Mike Bobbitt)  a Private Message (PM) including details on the incident.
There is only one method listed, to lodge a complaint. I don't see anywhere where Mike listed "Complain, whine, wail and gnash your teeth in the open forum"

 
Just reinforces my point that people do not read the Conduct Guidelines
 
MatthewHopkins said:
If someone isn't allowed to grow, learn and change... then there is no sense having Army.ca where people are, I think, looking to learn.

Huh ? If people weren't allowed to grow and change here, they would be banned upon their first mistake.
As you aren't banned, you're a living proof that is not the case here...
 
muskrat89 said:
Maybe it IS taboo. Because it is a PRIVATE site! NONE of us have ANY rights here. I don't know why that is so hard to swallow for some people. I would not go to your house and tell you that you are folding your towels wrong. Or disciplining your children excessively. Or grooming your dog improperly. I would not go to your office and question every policy that I disagreed with or that didn't make any sense to me.

My God this gets exasperating

It might be private but it's frequented by people.  Just like a restaurant.  If I'm not satisfied with what is offered, I'll give suggestions (most restaurants have comments cards).  I'm sure if Mike wanted a forum on which only his friends are invited, he wouldn't let anybody who feel like it register.

muskrat89 said:
Also from the Conduct Guidelines: There is only one method listed, to lodge a complaint. I don't see anywhere where Mike listed "Complain, whine, wail and gnash your teeth in the open forum"

I expressed my opinion because a public comment was made towards a member by a DS that, in my opinion, was against the Conduct Guidelines.  DS doesn't miss opportunities to let us know publicly that we have done something wrong.  (And I have nothing against that.  I should just work both ways)

Max
 
Mike Bobbitt said:
The Staff of Army.ca request your help in reversing some recent trends.  The purpose of this thread is not to be a one way direction.  It is a chance to hit the reset button on the tone of our forum.  It is also an opportunity to collectively define the ethos we want to project to new members, visitors and the leadership of the Canadian Forces (after all, good ideas posted here will only be taken as seriously as the collective board).

...

The strength of this forum, as with any online discourse, comes with debate.  Let’s keep the quality level of debate high.

How do we want to get there?

Yrys said:
If you don't like the rules,  either talk to Mike Bobbit or go to "most web boards".

This thread was started by Mike, who owns this site. He started this thread looking for high quality debate and openly addressed concerns about the tone of Army.ca. In that way, this thread was created for the purpose of rooting out the problems and then discussing them in an open forum. Ridiculing someone for taking him up on his offer to discuss this, calling it "whining" is hardly keeping with what Mike actually stated. This thread is, once again, becoming an example of the problematic tone.
 
We try very hard not to moderate threads we are involved in and also try to always sign moderation posts with "Army.ca Staff" in bold. It doesn't always happen that way but we ain't perfect either.

Private site, Mike's rules, we help enforce them and if we were bringing the site down we'd be turfed, simple. As far as the membership goes, we have some that get off on the wrong foot here and step into it on the first day, some continue on that path and are banned, some turn around into great posters and some are still a pain in the arse. It takes all kinds...

There are two members raising issues right now with how the DS is dealing with things. Two out of 15, 000 members, what is the percentage on that? Not that I am trying to trivialize your complaints, you obviously feel just in making them and we always try to deal with the issues. But, if I may be so bold, I would suggest that you go on listening silence for a while and just let this deceased equine go on its merry way to heaven. As well, while I am sure your advice on running forums is appreciated, we do have ample experience in doing so. Not that we don't listen to suggestions, just that we have been running this site a certain way for as long as I have been here and it seems to work pretty well. On that note, when we do encounter major problems we are pretty good as DS collectively at sitting down and sorting things out.

Matthew, you made your point, I am listening, are you?

Scott
Army.ca Staff




 
If I'm not satisfied with what is offered, I'll give suggestions

Right - and if they don't change the menu or their level of service to match your requirements suggestion - then you are free to go to another restaurant, or keep visiting that one. Sending the same comment card in over and over again won't have much effect.
 
I must agree with Ex-Dragoon and muskrat89.  This is getting rather exasperating.  Whining is only making some members here look like immature fools and Trolls.  The last couple of pages, especially the last page, have proven to the readers here and Mods that many who are doing the complaining haven't read the required reading, nor acknowledged the information as to what this site is all about, who owns and runs it, etc.  All they are succeeding in doing is encouraging others to complain about the Mods.  We just had a Report to Mod today about something posted a year ago.  Not very timely intelligence, nor informative.

What have you succeeded in doing?  You have succeeded in becoming Trolls and disrupting the site.  You have become part of the problem and not the solution.  

I recommend that the last three pages of this Topic be deleted, so as not to inflame anymore borderline trolling from others, (which has already started to happen).

  :mad:
 
Scott said:
There are two members raising issues right now with how the DS is dealing with things. Two out of 15, 000 members, what is the percentage on that?

Scott, I'm sure many other people agree with the issues that are brought.  Just at work, mostly all of my co-workers that visit this site would agree.  People just let it go.  

muskrat89 said:
Right - and if they don't change the menu or their level of service to match your requirements suggestion - then you are free to go to another restaurant, or keep visiting that one. Sending the same comment card in over and over again won't have much effect.

Usually restaurants try to listen to their custumers.  When a suggestion makes sense, why not???  All I'm trying to bring up here is that sometimes, DS permit themselve to go against the Conduct Guidelines.  Yes, we are all humans, however, if we take the military analogy, DS are the "Officers" of this forum.  What would the "NCMs" say about an officer that do not follow the regulations?  What would you say if I walked outside without my wedge or looking like a bag of ****?

Members also listen to DS, I do anyways!

Max
 
Max,

We do listen, it doesn't always appear that way but every suggestion and complaint is taken seriously...to a point...I don't know anyone that listens when it is the same thing over and over again...much like it is getting to be here.

I am also sure that many other people would agree with you, but they aren't posting that here, you are. Maybe some people do let it go, there is plenty that Il et go as well.
 
Scott said:
Max,

We do listen, it doesn't always appear that way but every suggestion and complaint is taken seriously...to a point...I don't know anyone that listens when it is the same thing over and over again...much like it is getting to be here.

I am also sure that many other people would agree with you, but they aren't posting that here, you are. Maybe some people do let it go, there is plenty that Il et go as well.

With due respect Scott, the tone of your posts and the tone of the posts of some of the other DS' are miles apart. Look through this thread alone to see. I'm not trying to say that all DS' are "bad" because, in fact, I have messaged Mike and he is a very respectful and nice person and thus far, you have been the same. If this site is geared to a certain group of soldiers and not others or a certain groups of civilians and not others, that is fine, but when the owner of the site creates a discussion thread asking for suggestions and then the majority of those doing DS duties come to chalk up every post as "whining", then something is not adding up. If Mike did not want this discussion to occur, I'm sure he would not have posted it. Is that not a fair assessment?
 
The mission of the site IS clear, at least to the majority, and the owner is not required to clarify anything on his private site, unless he wants to. There's over 10,000 members here. Many of us are paying subscribers. They can be, and are, from all walks of life. Both civilian and martial. Every once in a while someone doesn't follow the rules and gets their toes stepped on. Then they decide to air their grievances and take the Mods and site to task about how unfair, uncouth, untouchable, undereducated, infallible, etc, the staff is. They are normally joined by one or two other malcontents who rise up on their white chargers to defend the downtrodden member, before climbing upon their sanctimonious ivory perch. They post condescending, over the top, not to subtle sideways swipes at the staff and get all bent when their little ploy is called and beg forgiveness for being 'misunderstood'. Over 10,000 other members don't agree because, if they did, they would join in, but they don't.

Bottom line is this is a private site, owned by Mike Bobbitt. He sets the rules, he employs volunteer staff to enforce those rules. One option is for members to follow those rules and be valued members, or another option is not following the rules and leaving the site altogether, either voluntary or via the Warning System. The choice is the members decision.

The site has been running smoothly for a number of years. We still experience some growing pains. The staff is constantly reevaluating rules, guidelines and operations behind the scenes. We do consider every logical and presented suggestion. We don't spend time on self serving whines disguised as said suggestions. Rest assured, every person put on every level of the Warning System, is normally also discussed, and a concensus reached before action is taken.

So as per normal, we have discussed this problem again (no it's far from the first time. A simple search would have revealed that). It's quite often though that the same people that complain about having to search are the same ones that start these threads. Vicious circle of coincidence, n'est-ce pas?

The idea that Mods can't participate is a non starter. Don't waste bandwidth discussing it. Feeling hard done by here? Go over to SOCNET and try your shit. You'll soon find out what  Roy was talking about. The Mods there make us look like pussycats.

If something is satisfying to over 10,000 members and not to a few, well,  we have to go with the majority. If your not in that majority, I suggest you reevaluate what you're doing here.

That's my $00.02, I should be up to about $1.50 on this subject by now. It's also my personal opinion as a member here, and being such, I don't care one iota whether you like it or not.  :salute:
 
Matthew,

Polite advice: You are not going to get very far posting the same thing over and over, I understood your meaning the first time.

Read what recceguy said very carefully, it's the best reply I've read in this thread and the content is golden.
 
Scott said:
Matthew,

Polite advice: You are not going to get very far posting the same thing over and over, I understood your meaning the first time.

Read what recceguy said very carefully, it's the best reply I've read in this thread and the content is golden.

Fair enough. It's a private site and if the answer is "love it or leave it", then that is well within your collective rights. I would advise deleting this thread, though, as it asks for opinions that are unwanted and opens the door to more flame-wars.
 
MatthewHopkins said:
....... If this site is geared to a certain group of soldiers and not others or a certain groups of civilians and not others, that is fine, but when the owner of the site creates a discussion thread asking for suggestions and then the majority of those doing DS duties come to chalk up every post as "whining", then something is not adding up.


You have made more than enough posts in this topic for the readers to come to some sort of conclusion.  I am sure that you would not be pleased to find out what their reactions and feelings really are.  The more you post, the more of an impression you will make in their eyes.  Remember that old saying about "being a fool and keeping your mouth shut, rather than opening it and removing all doubt".   That works just as much on the internet as it does live, and in person.

I am still of the opinion, that your conduct in this post is inflammatory and inciteful and will cause more problems for this site.  The Mods have discussed this Topic and have decided to leave it up in its' entirety for all to judge.  I would suggest you stop now, as you have made a point, and now you are painting yourself into a rather tight spot in the eyes of the membership of this site.  Please stop while you are still a contributing member and a member of good(?) standing on this site.
 
MatthewHopkins said:
Fair enough. It's a private site and if the answer is "love it or leave it", then that is well within your collective rights. I would advise deleting this thread, though, as it asks for opinions that are unwanted and opens the door to more flame-wars.

It'll stay right here, forever. That way anyone that wants can come and reference it anytime to see what kind of people are here and what they've written. For example, I know instructors that have used it just to see what they're students are really like.
 
Integrity

in•teg•ri•ty      /ɪnˈtɛgrɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-teg-ri-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty. 
2. the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire. 
3. a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull. 



[Origin: 1400–50; late ME integrite < L integritās. See integer, -ity]


—Synonyms 1. rectitude, probity, virtue. See honor.

—Antonyms 1. dishonesty.

Fortitude

for•ti•tude      /ˈfɔrtɪˌtud, -ˌtyud/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawr-ti-tood, -tyood] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun mental and emotional strength in facing difficulty, adversity, danger, or temptation courageously: Never once did her fortitude waver during that long illness. 

[Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L fortitūdō strength, firmness, courage, equiv. to forti(s) strong + -tūdō -tude]


—Synonyms See patience



I start my post with two words that I live my life ethos by; integrity and fortitude.  Why do start it in this manner, well let us use the example of this thread, that started this world wind.

I responded to MatthewHopkins post by speaking like I always do;

Guess your break was not intended to be a long one eh?  I have taken Pee breaks that took longer....

But, oh my, how could you, not from a Mod.

I was lambasted.  How could such tone be taken?

Three hours before this same poster was denouncing a member of the boards for offering an opinion.  His comments ranged from

MatthewHopkins said:
With that said, don't presume to tell me what to do with my career when you were not asked and especially when you don't know about, nor have experience in, the training process I am going through.

MatthewHopkins said:
Airmich has not been through IAP/BOTC, is not in the Army, is not on the wrestling team, and chose to weigh in on a few different threads where I have posted despite the fact that she has no experience whatsoever. Just because you can weigh in on a thread doesn't mean you should. A simple rule in life... if you don't know what you're talking about... don't. Watch and learn from people who do, which is why I'm here trying to get some more answers.

How about hearing from someone who has actually gone through the training I am about to go through?

Then after being put on warning, proceeds to scream bloody murder;

Then, after discussing this behind the scenes, with other members, he proceeds to say he will take a break;

MatthewHopkins said:
OK I am going to take a break from the site. I realize I am coming off as an *** but that is not my intention. I was trying to get information and got pissy and for that I apologize.

I have been given some misguided information from people who probably meant well but didn't know what was going on and it has been rather frustrating, to say the least. I find it difficult to find solid advice on the net from those who have gone the officer route and that is probably because they are making changes all the time. So for those who are/were offended, I apologize as it wasn't my intention to put anyone down.

So I will take a break, read along and keep my mouth shut for a while and once again, if anyone is offended by me, I apologize because that really was not my intention.

Now after a wee break we have this;

MatthewHopkins said:
I find the tone here to be pretty combative at times, especially as I have moved through the recruiting parts of the site on my way to signing up. I get the impression that there is this attitude that one needs to put the new guy "in his place" which should be looked at as problematic, at least in this setting where this forum is a resource for non-members or potential members as well. I would just say that if someone new... like me... comes out with something that is factually wrong or off the mark, then explain why and do it with grace, as this shows leadership and sets the example going forward. As a new guy, I can guarantee you that I will screw up about ten million times over the next 20 or 30 years and that should be taken into consideration on this forum by members and it should be encouraged by the administration as well.

Folks notice the time in between the two posts, three hours, THREE HOURS TO THE MINUTE.

3 hours and he has an epiphany, strong enough to lecture us, and offer advice about tone and content for the site.  A person, who has never stepped inside a pair of combat boots.  A person who feels that earlier in the day it was his right to criticize someone’s experience because he did not like their answer.  Then he offers an opinion that goes against his own conduct.

I responded, and I am still fired up about that.  Why?  Lacking of integrity.

The funny part is I had others comment upon my post, and criticize my leadership skills!  Not once, in all the years that I have been here have I ever bragged about what I have done.  Only time I ever have is if someone asked, however I have people who believe they are fluent in leadership, quote me one of the old ten points of leadership!!!!

How neat.  I pointed out the point about integrity, and I get this ;

SupersonicMax said:
the 48th regulator said:
What I saw from him, was a post that lacked any iota of it.  Trolling you say, as opposed to his post?  My post was looked upon as a trolling post, becasue I used the analogy of the time taken for a pee break was longer than his cool down. 

I could not care less of the words you used to express your, or any idea.  I find the problem is the provocative tone of your post.  In fact, I find your post projects an image of "Do as I say, not as I do".  Again, I'm talking about your posts here, not MH's.  All I'm saying is that the DS/Mods should, just as the regular members are requested to do, respect the Conduct Guidelines.

the 48th regulator said:
Look up the word Integrity.  In fact look it up first in our search function, and you will see I like to use it.

What does it have to do with the conversation?
Max

Edit:  Semantic

Now you see folks, I am not going to quote all the other bandwagon joiners, as they all fall into the same trap.

My post against Mathew was about his integrity.  He was wishy washy, however the amusing part was the way people jumped on my post.  C’mon, the word pee got everyone’s feathers rankled.  But not one of any of those posters, after I even pointed to the original thread Mathew was offensive in, did they step in and chastise his actions.  This tells me that you all condone that type of action, until a Mod “appears” to do that, and then start your crusade against us.

This is where fortitude comes in to play.  Everyone that has made a comment has readily bandied about how they will become leaders in this military, how they have lead people, however I see a lack of fortitude.  This especially happens when I see a lack of integrity, and I decide to comment on that.

Start to grow thick skins people; show some fortitude, and practice the mantra of integrity, as I am truly disgusted by the actions of the few here who try to pontificate the roles that they have not even stepped in, but are practicing to become.

Those of us have already traveled that Roman mile and have the milestone notches on our belt to prove it.

dileas

tess

edit for spelling
 
SupersonicMax said:
It might be private but it's frequented by people.  Just like a restaurant.  If I'm not satisfied with what is offered, I'll give suggestions (most restaurants have comments cards).  ...

Max,

I understand what you're trying to say - but your analogy sucks.  A restaurant is a BUSINESS - this site is not.  The two do not equate.

I've found the DS (and Mike) receptive to suggestions - when they are phrased as suggestions, not demands.
 
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