Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"

[George Wallace]

A relative of one of the accused puts some spin on the matter:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act

Teens' death no honour killing: victims' relative

LINK

24/07/2009 4:13:04 PM



The great aunt of three teenagers found dead in a submerged car in the Rideau Canal last month says their deaths were a result of "sabotage," and not caused by a culture clash.

CTV.ca News Staff

At a press conference on Thursday, Kingston police said they're investigating the possibility the three girls, who were found dead on June 30 with a woman now identified as their stepmother, were victims of a so-called "honour killing."

The four victims in this case, "all shared the rights within our great country to live without fear, to enjoy safety and security, and to exercise freedom of choice and expression, and yet had their lives cut short," Kingston Police Chief Stephen Tanner said at the press conference.

But Zarmina Fazel, the aunt of the girls' mother, Tooba Mohammad Yahya, has alleged in an interview with the Toronto Star that the four victims died as part of a suicide bid by the eldest daughter, Zainab Shafia, 19.

"Zainab was not normal," Fazel said. She defended both parents, saying the father of the family, Mohammed Shafia, was "a very honest man" and that the teens' mother was "not that kind of person."

Zainab's body was discovered with those of two younger sisters, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13, on June 30. The fourth passenger in the submerged vehicle has been identified as Rona Amir Mohammed, 50.

The parents of the three teenage girls and a brother, 18-year-old Hamed Mohammad Shafia, have been charged with first-degree murder and with conspiracy to commit murder in connection with their deaths.

The Shafia family came to Canada from Afghanistan, part of the world in which so-called "honour killings," or the practice of murdering female relatives deemed to have brought shame on a family, has been known to occur.

They were on their way back to their home near Montreal, in Saint-Leonard, Que., around the time the submerged car was discovered. The family had been returning from a trip to Niagara Falls.

Meanwhile, residents of Saint-Leonard reacted with shock on Friday at news that the father, mother, and eldest son of the Shafia family had been charged in relation to the teens' deaths.

From the get-go, police said they were treating the deaths as "suspicious."

The three accused are being held in police custody until their next court appearance on Aug. 6.


============================================================

Excuse me!

Four people in a car in 3 m of water, in a next to impossible location to drive into, and not one of the four victims bothered to open a door or window to escape?  Suspicious?  Hell Yeah!

 

[40below]

... and at least one of the victims was still belted in when they recovered the car. You do the figuring.

 

[1feral1]

They do thse 'honour killings' in their own country, and now they do it in ours (both Canada and Australia), and that goes to show you how much they respect their new adopted country, it's culture and our laws.

Pathetic.

Lets hope they spend the rest of their lives in gaol.

OWDU

 

[George Wallace]

Wes

I do agree with you.  Some of these people (of all Cultures) have emigrated to our countries, and have been unable to leave their ....... shall we say..... less desireable "Cultural habits" behind. 

We should be more 'stringent' in educating them as to what our cultures expect of them, and enlighten then as to our "LAWS".

 

[1feral1]

Fair enough George, but these are the only types who do these honour killings, and perhaps they should grasp something we all have, and thats common sense as they know its unacceptable here in the west, but maybe they know how pi$$ weak our legal system is, and have to sit in a gaol for a few years before they regain their freedom. I wonder what defence their lawyers will use :

Overall we have all sorts of disgusting crimes committed by our own citizens, but I find these honour killings something from the dark ages, and totally 'unwestern' in their 'sense' in their justification of such sick and twisted things.

Family is what life is all about, and to plan a MURDER of a family member for (example, say the wearing 'western' dress to school when told to wear the cultural one - remember this recent case?), not a crime of passion or such, but to be cunning and openly KILL in cold blood is unacceptable, and there is no excuse for it.

Throw a way the key, adn seet an example please.

Cold beers,

Wes

 

[Beltlink]

I guess I may be a bad person for seeing this in my light.
I think it is a shameful discusting waste of a good automobile.
The bright side being five potential lunatics removed from the streets one way or the other.
Still brighter yet, they kept it amongst themslves.
And I do appreciate that. No innocent bystanders getting whacked for a change.
Real deep down in your hearts you all appreciate it too. All your family getting home that day not getting caught up in a crossfire or worse because some lunatic gets the kooky religion itch.
(It's OK -- that don't make you bad).
I don't condone senseless killings, but I would stand back and watch a dog eat a dog.
And yes, I do sleep well at night.
Right after my prayers of thanking our Vets for my freedom.

 

[Smity199]

Good riddance, ship em all back in my opinion

 

[FastEddy]

I guess I may be a bad person for seeing this in my light.
I think it is a shameful discusting waste of a good automobile.
The bright side being five potential lunatics removed from the streets one way or the other.
Still brighter yet, they kept it amongst themslves.
And I do appreciate that. No innocent bystanders getting whacked for a change.
Real deep down in your hearts you all appreciate it too. All your family getting home that day not getting caught up in a crossfire or worse because some lunatic gets the kooky religion itch.
(It's OK -- that don't make you bad).
I don't condone senseless killings, but I would stand back and watch a dog eat a dog.
And yes, I do sleep well at night.
Right after my prayers of thanking our Vets for my freedom.

I won't attempt to critique your post as it speaks volumes for itself and the writer.

However, I don't think our Veterans had you in their mind or your philosophy.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The cultural problems we face have nothing much to do with Islam, per se, and are not even confined to predominantly Muslim Arab/Persian/West Asian peoples. Here in Canada there have been cases of “honour” killings amongst Indians (mostly Sikhs) and now, from the USA, we have this horrific story of the gang rape of a child and the consequential family “shame” (dishonour). It involves Liberians. There is no indication that the father’s shame is, in any way, religiously motivated. It is a cultural matter and, I repeat, it is an element of the barbarism that infects many illiberal cultures.


At the risk of repeating myself, the cultural spectrum does not run on a straight line:

Liberal --------------------------------------- Conservative


Rather the spectrum is more like this:

                                                  Conservative
Illiberal ----------------------------<
                                                    Liberal


Both Liberal and Conservative cultures are enlightened and highly civilized; they differ, primarily, in the emphasis they place on individual rights vs. social harmony. Illiberal societies, on the other hand, are less enlightened and less likely to have well developed civic institutions and values.

Canada is not quite as Liberal as many would like to believe but we are, certainly, not, in any meaningful way, illiberal. One risk we take, however, is that we pride ourselves on being, broadly, tolerant. That can be dangerous if we allow ourselves to “tolerate” barbaric social customs, imported from the illiberal world.

 

[George Wallace]

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act

Family conflict led to canal tragedy, says relative

LINK

25/07/2009 8:22:39 AM



The eldest of three sisters found dead in a submerged car last month was in a forbidden relationship with a young man before her death, according to a relative, who says the 19-year-old girl had clashed with her family earlier this year. 

CTV.ca News Staff

Zainab Shafia's body was discovered with those of two younger sisters, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13, on June 30. Also found dead in a submerged car in the Rideau Canal was Rona Amir Mohammad, a 50-year-old woman now identified as their father's first wife.

Father Mohammed Shafi, wife Tooba Mohammad Yahya and their son Hamed Mohammad Shafia, 18, have been charged with first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder in connection with the deaths.

Kingston police are investigating the possibility that the three girls and the woman were victims of a so-called "honour killing."

Rona's brother says that the family was locked in conflict and that the eldest daughter's romantic relationship with a young Pakistani man may have been a contributing factor in the tragedy.

"The parents of this girl did not want her to marry a Pakistani boy who didn't have any money. They didn't want that," relative Wali Abdali, who lives in France, told CTV Montreal on Friday.

Rona, who had previously been identified by the family as both an aunt and a cousin, lived with her husband, his second wife and their seven children at the family's Montreal home.

But the family arrangement was causing strain, according to Abdali.

"They didn't have a good relationship. The other woman didn't want my sister to stay in the house with them," he said in French.

The father reportedly took a second wife after it was found that Rona couldn't conceive. The marriages took place in Afghanistan in the late 1970s and early 1980s, where it is legal to have two wives.

According to Zarmina Fazel, who is the aunt of wife Tooba, Shafia is a smart businessman who has worked hard to build a life for his family in Canada.

Shafia owns at least three business, and last year, he bought a retail mall in Laval, Que., which is worth around $2 million, CTV Montreal reported.

Shafia was also building a large family home in a gated community in Brossard, a suburb east of Montreal.

Originally from Afghanistan, the family lived in Dubai for 15-years before coming to Canada two years ago.

Community reaction

Another relative defended her family members, in an interview with the Toronto Star.

But Zarmina Fazel, the aunt of the girls' mother, Tooba Mohammad Yahya, has alleged that the four victims died as part of a suicide bid by the eldest daughter, Zainab.

"Zainab was not normal," Fazel said. She defended both parents, saying that father Mohammed is "a very honest man" and that the teens' mother was "not that kind of person."

The three accused are being held in police custody until their next court appearance on Aug. 6.

The whole family was on the way back to their home near Montreal, in Saint-Leonard, Que., around the time the submerged car was discovered. They had been returning from a trip to Niagara Falls.

As rumours surrounding the deaths continue to circulate, Ihsaan Gardee, spokesman from the Canadian chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said the term "honour killing" is troublesome.

"With regards to the term honour killing thrown about, all Canadians soundly reject killing, by whatever name -- a killing is a killing," he said.

The term has been used to describe other high-profile cases in Canada, including the 2007 death of Toronto teenager Aqsa Parvez, who was allegedly killed by her father and brother after she refused to wear the traditional Muslim headscarf.

But Gardee said using the phrase sends the message that "the killing of women and children is the exclusive monopoly of any one faith or culture or ethnicity."

More on Link.
LINK

 

[hauger]

But Gardee said using the phrase sends the message that "the killing of women and children is the exclusive monopoly of any one faith or culture or ethnicity."

True, killing transends all races, colours, and creeds, but the motives involved in "honour killings" seem to be highly concentrated to one particular faith and culture.  Rather than ignore and divert responsibility, maybe particular communities leaders should take a strong stand against the mindset that leads to these acts.  That would probably be more useful than saying "hey, this stuff happens to every community".

 

[chris_log]

True, killing transends all races, colours, and creeds, but the motives involved in "honour killings" seem to be highly concentrated to one particular faith and culture.  Rather than ignore and divert responsibility, maybe particular communities leaders should take a strong stand against the mindset that leads to these acts.  That would probably be more useful than saying "hey, this stuff happens to every community".

Islam isn't the only faith with people that condone killing in the name of 'God'.

Christians are good at killing abortion doctors, witches (still happens in places like Africa) etc etc. Let ye without sin...

Just sayin'. 

 

[George Wallace]

True, killing transends all races, colours, and creeds, but the motives involved in "honour killings" seem to be highly concentrated to one particular faith and culture.

I guess you haven't read much of the thread yet.  "Honour killings" ARE NOT concentrated to one particular FAITH.  Honour killings are found in several faiths such as Sikh, Hindi, etc.  No doubt you have heard of Vendettas as well?  Vendettas are not uncommon in every faith, especially around the Mediterranean, and Eastern Europe. 

But we digress.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Good riddance, ship em all back in my opinion

Ah, the old "the only good x is a dead x" school - good one...  :

Re:  media coverage, all are considered innocent until proven otherwise in our system, but it's interesting the different stories one gets from different family members (like many families anywhere, I guess) - this from today's Kingston Whig-Standard:

The older brother of a woman found dead in a submerged car in Kingston says the man accused of killing her told him roughly two months ago that his sister had "gone very bad."

Wali Abdali said he spoke to Mohammed Shafion the telephone about Abdali's sister, Rona Amir Mohammed, who married Shafi 30 years ago.

"She and the girls were going out without veils," Abdali told the Whig-Standard in a telephone interview yesterday from his home in Lyon, France, recounting his conversation with Shafi.

Shafi complained to Abdali that Mohammed and Shafi's daughters were also wearing skirts instead of pants, short-sleeved tops and they were taking pictures of each other while dressed that way.

"He (Shafi) was upset about all this," Abdali said, because Shafi, a native of Afghanistan, clung to very strict, old-fashioned views about how women should behave...

 

[Edward Campbell]

I guess you haven't read much of the thread yet.  "Honour killings" ARE NOT concentrated to one particular FAITH.  Honour killings are found in several faiths such as Sikh, Hindi, etc.  No doubt you have heard of Vendettas as well?  Vendettas are not uncommon in every faith, especially around the Mediterranean, and Eastern Europe. 

But we digress.

Well, some Muslims believe they are.

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s National Post is a column by Tarek Fatah, described in the linked CBC item as ”a fierce critic of "radical" Islam”:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1826529

How to cure the honour killings ‘cancer’
Comment

Tarek Fatah, National Post

Published: Friday, July 24, 2009

Almost as soon as news broke that the murders of three Afghan-Canadian teenage sisters and their father's first wife in Kingston, Ont., were possible "honour killings," some in the Muslim community reacted in the most predictable fashion: defensiveness and denial.

Instead of voicing outrage at the murders, two Muslim callers to my CFRB radio show in Toronto slammed me for raising the subject, and suggested I had some hidden agenda. "This has nothing to do with Islam," said one caller, despite the fact no one on the show had, to that point, even mentioned the word "Islam," let alone accused the religion of sanctioning honour killings.

The callers were not alone. The head of the Canadian branch of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) told the CBC more or less the same thing - that the story was unrelated to Islam, which apparently does not permit honour killings.

They are both right and wrong. It is true that Islam's holy book, the Koran, does not sanction honour killings. But to deny the fact that many incidents of honour killings are conducted by Muslim fathers, sons and brothers, and that many victims are Muslim women, is to exercise intellectual dishonesty. At worst, it is an attempt to shut off debate.

When Mississauga, Ont., teenager Aqsa Pervez was killed, everyone from Mullahs to so-called Muslim feminists claimed it was not an honour killing - even though there were allegations she had run afoul of her family for socializing with non-Muslim friends and not wearing a hijab. Critics then charged that to refer to the murder in such words was to be an anti-Muslim bigot. Humbug.

As I said, it is true that the Koran does not sanction such murders, but man-made sharia law, which has been falsely imputed divine status, does allow for the killing of women if they indulge in pre-marital or extra-marital consensual sex. This is precisely why so many progressive and liberal Muslims have opposed the introduction of sharia law in Canada.

There is no denying that Islam, in its contemporary expression, is obsessed with women's sexuality, and considers it a fundamental problem. The hijab, the niqab, the burka and polygamy are all manifestations of this phobia.

The mullahs and the mosque leadership may deny their role in ensuring that Muslim women are second-class citizens within the community, but the place they reserve for women in the house of God, the Mosque, reveals their real conviction. Other than one mosque in Toronto, not a single other is willing to let Muslim women sit in the front row. They are sent to the back, or behind curtains, or pushed into basements or balconies, for they are considered not as our mothers or daughters and sisters, but as sexual triggers that may ignite male passions.

Honour killings take place because some Muslims have been convinced by their mullahs that the burden of their family's honour and their religion is vested in the virginity of their daughters and sisters. Most mullahs acknowledge that according to sharia law, a woman who has consensual sex with a man outside marriage deserves to be lashed in public or stoned to death by an Islamic State or an Islamic court. Don't these Islamists see how this interpretation can be taken as a license by men to take the law into their own hands?

Not until Muslim clerics and imams seriously abandon their notion about women being the possession of men will we begin to address the cancer of honour killings, which take more than 5,000 lives in South Asia and the Middle East alone.

The underlying mentality is a problem in virtually all parts of the world. In October 2006, for instance, an Australian imam of Lebanese descent, the country's most senior Muslim cleric, triggered outrage when he described women who dress immodestly (in his view) as "uncovered meat" who invite sexual attacks. Sheikh Taj Al-din al-Hilali, the so-called Mufti of Australia, condemned women who, he said, "sway suggestively," wear makeup, and do not wear the hijab.

Until 2007, only men had translated the Koran and interpreted it. That's because the very idea of a woman translating the holy book offends Islamists. Consider, for example, the reaction to the first-ever translation by a woman - Laleh Bakhtiar's The Sublime Quran - two years ago.

Mohammad Ashraf of the Canadian branch of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) - the same gentleman who this week told the CBC that there was no provision for honour killings in Islam - told The Toronto Star that he would not permit The Sublime Quran to be sold in the ISNA bookstore. "Our bookstore would not allow this kind of translation," he said. "I will consider banning it ... This woman-friendly translation will be out of line and will not fly too far."

What had Laleh Bakhtiar done to deserve the punishment of having her translation of the Koran banned from ISNA's Islamic bookstores? Her fault, in the eyes of Islamists, is that she believes the Koran does not condone spousal abuse, as claimed by Islamists.

If a woman's translation of the Koran is banned from an Islamic bookstore, what is available at such places. At one Toronto bookstore, the title of a gaudy paperback screamed at passersby: Women Who Deserve to Go to Hell. The book, which is also widely available in British libraries and mosques, lists the type of women who will face eternal damnation. Among them are:

• "The Grumbler ... the woman who complains against her husband every now and then is one of Hell."
• "The Woman Who Adorns Herself."
• "The Woman Who Apes Men, Tattoos, Cuts Hair Short and Alters Nature."

Not until the leadership of the Muslim clergy takes steps to end gender apartheid and misogyny will they be taken seriously when they say, "honour killing" is not permitted by Islam. They cannot have it both ways: proclaim women as the source of sin as well as deserving of death for consensual sex, and then claim the men who carry out the death sentence are acting against Islamic law.

National Post

I certainly agree with Fatah that many, far too many, Islamic “clergy” are quite irresponsible when they (incorrectly) mix Arab/Persian/West Asian cultural norms with Islam; the two are not the same.

I also agree with Fatah that Sharia Law is wholly and completely incompatible with Canadian values and must never be allowed to gain a foothold here. (Parenthetically, we should also refuse to recognize Jewish and Christian “law” also – including religious divorces and ecclesiastical courts which, now and gain, punish members of the clergy for some infractions. Civil remedies to civil problems should be found, exclusively, in civil institutions: courts and/or mediators. If rabbis, for example, want to mediate marriage disputes and then recommend a civil divorce that it fine but the Get, the rabbinical divorce, should not be recognized or, in any way, required in Canada.)

The real problem is that some cultural “communities," many of which happen to have large, strong Muslim communities embedded within them, have “values,” including patriarchal “values” that consign women to the status of property and which allow, even encourage, male violence against women, which must be intolerable here in Canada.

Again, accepting the risk of repeating myself: my life experiences (nearly seven decades including living and working on several continents) have taught me that all people are equal, but that cultures are not. Some cultures, our Anglo-American one included, are superior and others are flawed. We, Canadians in Canada, cannot, indeed must not “tolerate” the flaws in other cultures.

 

[Beltlink]

Fast Eddie wrote---
"I won't attempt to critique your post as it speaks volumes for itself and the writer."

You just did, and there is nothing wrong with that either.

Fast Eddie wrote---

"However, I don't think our Veterans had you in their mind or your philosophy."

If this country is going to embrace multiculterism then do so.
Warts and all. Quit complaining because you let a lamb in the front door and it grows into something else.
Far to many people beleive that the toothless lions guarding the front gate are doing a good job.
If so --- then why is the back gate wide open ??????
Also there are far too many peope that think they can pet an aligator.

All anyone has to do is look at Europe (with their eyes open that is).
Britain, France, Belgium Holland -- the names of these countries and more should be familiar.

There in that list is what happens when toothless lions run the show.

History repeats itself and at the same time -- it expands.

When the carnage hits the streets here some may want to come back and read my post.
And I have talked to Veterans. From WW1 to present.
The only difference between myself and others that have talked to them, I beleive I listened.
Europe is in the mess it is in because they have allowed it. "Again and again", and now again.
And we are on the same trail.

Not in our time -- but in a time soon to come -- 49%/51% is all it will take to change the Lambs into Aligators.
Our own rules say so. Even I can't argue that one.

And in ending -- there is still a lot of sand in this country, room for more heads.
To my knowledge it is still free.

I don't allow sand on my property  -- it blurs my vision of the back gate.

Be well, and live in peace.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Far to many people beleive that the toothless lions guarding the front gate are doing a good job.

I would be curious to find out whom you think the "toothless lions" are. 

Would you have, perhaps, ever known of a poster named cmndr-cb? 

 

[Edward Campbell]

Mr. Campbell, once again your sagacity contributes greatly to the quality of debate on this site.  However, and with all respect, may I offer a point of clarification?  A Get is not a requirement or a prerequisite for a divorce in Canada.  Rabbinical law holds that the civil laws of the country of residence take precedence to Rabbincal law.  All a Get does is enable the divorced parties to re-marry according to Jewish customs and traditions.  In the absence of one Canadian law holds that a Jewish couple can still divorce.  Nor does it tolerate one party using the refusal to grant a Get as a lever of coercion.

Curiously enough as a result of this linkage (or,perhaps more appropriately,lack thereof), Canadian law is providing a model for the amendment of Israeli divorce laws:

http://www.jewishindependent.ca/Archives/Oct05/archives05Oct14-03.html

Other than this perhaps pedantic point I, as I do frequently, agree with your thesis.

Thank you for that, Shec. I think I understood the fine distinction of what the Get does and doesn't get you (I cannot resist puns! It's a major character flaw.  :'(  ) but it is a point well worth making and we thank you for doing it.

I was unaware of the information on the link.

The Jews, (not and ethnic group or a "race") have a long, long "continuous" history - like the Afghans, Chinese and Persian/Iranians they are an "old" culture. Old cultures are often patriarchal. The Chinese have, nearly, but only in the cities, overcome their "age." Urban Chinese women are, for all practical purposes just as "equal" as urban Canadian women. The Afghans and Persian/Iranians are having more difficulty, even when they migrate to modern, liberal states. The Jews are, as they traditionally have, adapting to the societies in which they live and they are making Israel a modern, liberal society.

 

[OldSolduer]

I guess I may be a bad person for seeing this in my light.
I think it is a shameful discusting waste of a good automobile.
The bright side being five potential lunatics removed from the streets one way or the other.
Still brighter yet, they kept it amongst themslves.
And I do appreciate that. No innocent bystanders getting whacked for a change.
Real deep down in your hearts you all appreciate it too. All your family getting home that day not getting caught up in a crossfire or worse because some lunatic gets the kooky religion itch.
(It's OK -- that don't make you bad).
I don't condone senseless killings, but I would stand back and watch a dog eat a dog.
And yes, I do sleep well at night.
Right after my prayers of thanking our Vets for my freedom.

I WILL comment on your post.

You, sir or madam, have no place alongside our Veterans. You are displaying racist tendencies which are not welcome here.
These women were not "lunatics". THEY were attempting to adapt to our norms, and were MURDERED for doing so.
MURDERING someone because they have besmirched some arrogant man's sense of "honour" is unacceptable. Period.

 

[Beltlink]

I would be curious to find out whom you think the "toothless lions" are. 
(I beleive politicians are "toothless lions.)

Would you have, perhaps, ever known of a poster named cmndr-cb? 
(No -- )

You, sir or madam, have no place alongside our Veterans.
(Too late for that) -- and please --you don't have to call me sir.)

You are displaying racist tendencies which are not welcome here.
(I extend caution in many directions. When I said I would watch a dog eat a dog that included gangs that shoot each other up, drug dealers and the like.-- poor choice of words at the time I will admit.)

THEY were attempting to adapt to our norms, and were MURDERED for doing so.
MURDERING someone because they have besmirched some arrogant man's sense of "honour" is unacceptable. Period.
(The truth is -- we don not know exactly what went on -- there is nothing more than mere speculation --"at least that is the way I see it" -- given on this forum.)
( For all any of us know they may have been escapeing to warn others of foul deeds to come.)
(I merely stated that I was glad they kept it amongst themselves. I didn't ask that the whole of them be shipped out,or chastised as a religion.)
(And if you would care to note  -- I have never once given this situation the respect of calling it an "Honour Killing" as many have. There is no honour in this. If that it what the world chooses to call it. I prefered to, you will note, to refer it as a senseless killing. By continually calling it an honour killing merely brings recognition to those who commit these acts as being succesful. But all I suppose are or should bve free to call it what they choose.)
(You may e-mail as you wish "Old Soldier"  -- as you have -- I would prefer you didn't offer threats, even mild ones. You are ceretainly within your rights to say what you wish, which apparently I am not. Each of us have opnions. And I do welcome yours.But no need for that.)

(I will disengage from this post -- as it was not my intention to start a riot.)

In ending ---
"Old Soldier"
I see by your avitar you have suffered a great loss.
For that I am truely deeply sorry.
The personel Sacrifice of your Son and that of his Collegues and those in the world like them while extending their hand of help to those oppressed is in my opinion is where Honour has it's only place.
(I will Remember).

Be well, live in Peace.

Beltlink --- out.