Current Dress Regs

[Eaglelord17]

That wasn’t the question. Did they perform to a lower standard? It has nothing to do with the maintenance of the hair.

Going to depend on the person and the situation. Your asking a hypothetical about hypothetical people I have never met, seen, or have any sort of actual metric on which to judge if they performed to a higher or lower standard.

Afghanistan is also a poor indicator of what we should be basing our standards on. We were basically walking gods over there in terms of our complete and overwhelming superiority on land and air.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Going to depend on the person and the situation. Your asking a hypothetical about hypothetical people I have never met, seen, or have any sort of actual metric on which to judge if they performed to a higher or lower standard.

Afghanistan is also a poor indicator of what we should be basing our standards on. We were basically walking gods over there in terms of our complete and overwhelming superiority on land and air.

Standard is subjective but it should be obvious that someone performs at a lower standard than someone else. Are you saying that in your time in Afghanistan (the only shooting war of the recent past we can use as a stake) that you never operated with long-haired women and short-haired women?

 

[Eaglelord17]

Standard is subjective but it should be obvious that someone performs at a lower standard than someone else. Are you saying that in your time in Afghanistan (the only shooting war of the recent past we can use as a stake) that you never operated with long-haired women and short-haired women?

I have never been to Afghanistan or claimed to have.

Again how am I supposed to make a subjective analysis of that specific example with no relevant data? Even with your example there can be many variables, trades, what specifically was happening at the given time, etc.

With what I have experienced and seen in my life long hair is a detriment not a aid. If you believe there is some perk to it, please share. I have provided examples of why short hair is better from a military context, I would love to see any examples of why long hair is a advantage. So far basically the main argument is some people prefer it from a fashion standpoint.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I have never been to Afghanistan or claimed to have.

Again how am I supposed to make a subjective analysis of that specific example with no relevant data? Even with your example there can be many variables, trades, what specifically was happening at the given time, etc.

With what I have experienced and seen in my life long hair is a detriment not a aid. If you believe there is some perk to it, please share. I have provided examples of why short hair is better from a military context, I would love to see any examples of why long hair is a advantage. So far basically the main argument is some people prefer it from a fashion standpoint.

So, you’re basing your opinion on no verifiable fact?

It’s not about perks, but about rights and freedoms. If there is no objective facts support having long hair reducing the standard then it is not an issue. I don’t need to provide an advantage to having long hair, you have to prove it has a disproportionate effect in the outcome. Otherwise, your opinion is based on emotions.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Standard is subjective but it should be obvious that someone performs at a lower standard than someone else. Are you saying that in your time in Afghanistan (the only shooting war of the recent past we Canadians can use as a stake) that you never operated with long-haired women and short-haired women?

There, FTFY

 

[Eaglelord17]

So, you’re basing your opinion on no verifiable fact?

It’s not about perks, but about rights and freedoms. If there is no objective facts support having long hair reducing the standard then it is not an issue. I don’t need to provide an advantage to having long hair, you have to prove it has a disproportionate effect in the outcome. Otherwise, your opinion is based on emotions.

Ahh yes those rights and freedoms which allowed and supported the military to have short hair standards without issue.

I have had long hair. I have had short hair. I can tell you which one is objectively better for a military organization. The same reasons Western militaries across the globe adopted those standards. It’s not like the militaries of the world almost collectively adopted those standards out of nowhere (especially considering they mostly all allowed long hair and beards before WWI).

The fact you can’t provide a advantage to long hair over short other than appearance tells me that your the one looking at this with a emotion based opinion.

Does it really matter for Canada at the moment? Likely not, our military is barely functional at the moment and is certainly not ready for any combat operations without substantial allied support. Overall our appearance is currently matching our capabilities.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Ahh yes those rights and freedoms which allowed and supported the military to have short hair standards without issue.

I have had long hair. I have had short hair. I can tell you which one is objectively better for a military organization. The same reasons Western militaries across the globe adopted those standards. It’s not like the militaries of the world almost collectively adopted those standards out of nowhere (especially considering they mostly all allowed long hair and beards before WWI).

The fact you can’t provide a advantage to long hair over short other than appearance tells me that your the one looking at this with a emotion based opinion.

Does it really matter for Canada at the moment? Likely not, our military is barely functional at the moment and is certainly not ready for any combat operations without substantial allied support. Overall our appearance is currently matching our capabilities.

Long hair allows women to adopt a universally accepted societal norm, resulting in feeling accepted and included in their life outside the military, leading to increased morale and retention.

If you knew me, you’d know I have about 0 emotion in my decision making.

I am pretty sure that no military requires women to clip their hair…. The US Army does not. The USMC does not…

 

[Eaglelord17]

I am pretty sure that no military requires women to clip their hair…. The US Army does not. The USMC does not…

Excellent a opportunity for Canada to show the world how much we value gender equality

 

[SupersonicMax]

Excellent a opportunity for Canada to show the world how much we value gender equality

We already did that. By allowing males to have long hair. Because hair length makes 0 difference on effectiveness. Contrary to you, I deployed in combat with women fighter pilots with long hair. And it had 0 impact on their ability to effectively do their job.

 

[Halifax Tar]

We already did that. By allowing males to have long hair. Because hair length makes 0 difference on effectiveness. Contrary to you, I deployed in combat with women fighter pilots with long hair. And it had 0 impact on their ability to effectively do their job.

We've never had an issue with it in the Navy either.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Contrary to you, I deployed in combat with women fighter pilots with long hair. And it had 0 impact on their ability to effectively do their job.

But there isn't a fighter ace with long hair.

 

[mariomike]

And it had 0 impact on their ability to effectively do their job.

Right.

Post #185 also made an interesting point.

A lot of basic human nature is not being accounted for here. When looked at completely objectively, perhaps you are right, but if your are planning on being a partner in a law firm, a police officer, or any number of other public facing roles where a significant component is gaining and holding the public trust and confidence, including the military where you want the voting public to support spending billions and billions of their money on, perhaps showing up like this isn't a good plan.

View attachment 84835
Ask your 80 year old widowed mother if she wants to let one of these in her house at 3am to fix her failed furnace.

As an employee, you are a representative, the public face, of your employer, they people who pay you. Within the limits of labour law and the Constitution, they get to say what you look like. If it is booty shorts and beanie with a propeller, so be it or find another line of work.

It may not be right in a perfect world, but we're not there.

Or, her bedroom.

Receiving a "focused physical examination" at 3am.

Her support as a customer / taxpayer / voter is needed for the pay, benefits and working conditions you deserve.

It may not be right in a perfect world, but we're not there.

I’m not a fan of tattoos period,

Never got one. Even less inclined after reading this yesterday,

Tattoos tied to higher lymphoma risk, research shows​

Tattoos tied to higher lymphoma risk, research shows - National | Globalnews.ca

Researchers from Sweden have found a link between tattoo exposure and malignant lymphoma risk, but note the findings are limited and more research on the topic is needed.

globalnews.ca

 

[dimsum]

But there isn't a fighter ace with long hair.

 

[Rifleman62]

Red Air Force fighter aces Liya Litvak (left) and Katya Budanova (center) scored a combined tally of 22 aerial victories before both were eventually killed in action.

Lilya Litvak: The Red Air Force’s Female Fighter Ace​

Red Air Force female pilot Lilya Litvak became a fighter ace and a Hero of the Soviet Union fighting the Germans.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Ask your 80 year old widowed mother if she wants to let one of these in her house at 3am to fix her failed furnace.

We aren't in the habit of fixing 80 year old's furnaces at 3am. We aren't the ones you call for that.

We are fighting force, that is our raison d'être.

 

[mariomike]

We aren't in the habit of fixing 80 year old's furnaces at 3am.

Thanks for quoting someone else.

Ask your 80 year old widowed mother if she wants to let one of these in her house at 3am to fix her failed furnace.

That post went on to say,

When looked at completely objectively, perhaps you are right, but if your are planning on being a partner in a law firm, a police officer, or any number of other public facing roles where a significant component is gaining and holding the public trust and confidence, including the military where you want the voting public to support spending billions and billions of their money on, perhaps showing up like this isn't a good plan.

It got 12

 

[AKa]

If they announced that I would have to cut my hair to the old mens' standard, I would submit my release paperwork right away. Over my decades of service, I've had longer hair, and I've had shorter hair. And I've cut it shorter when my duties made it the sensible choice. Most people with a modicum of common sense will adapt to the circumstances.

As many before me in this thread have stated, the real issue is that supervisors have not enforced dress standards in a very long time. Completely eliminating any boundaries has demonstrated that many military members, given no restraints, are quite happy to look crappy in uniform. It's just more apparent now.

 

[mariomike]

If they announced that I would have to cut my hair to the old mens' standard, I would submit my release paperwork right away.

People would quit over a haircut?

 

[AKa]

People would quit over a haircut?

Yep. I don't think you quite understand how many women feel about their hair. Not being a man, I can't speak for all you men, but for many, many women, hair is a defining part of their self-expression. There's cultural, social associations you may not personally understand, but I assure you they exist.

I invest a ridiculous amount of time and money in my hair without a second thought because to me, it's part of me. Is it sensible? Maybe not. But it's going to continue. And for what it's worth, I always look tidy and professional in uniform.

 

[Remius]

If they announced that I would have to cut my hair to the old mens' standard, I would submit my release paperwork right away. Over my decades of service, I've had longer hair, and I've had shorter hair. And I've cut it shorter when my duties made it the sensible choice. Most people with a modicum of common sense will adapt to the circumstances.

As many before me in this thread have stated, the real issue is that supervisors have not enforced dress standards in a very long time. Completely eliminating any boundaries has demonstrated that many military members, given no restraints, are quite happy to look crappy in uniform. It's just more apparent now.

What exactly is the old man standard?