Crash Landing; The Passionate Eye-CBC

[Zarathustra]

I'm just wondering, how much is done in the military to prevent PTSD ? Like information on the subject, debriefing, psychological exam on tour/back from tour, things like that. In Dave Grossman On Combat there's a chapter on the subject and information on how to prevent it. Prevention could reduce the claims, legitimate or false.

As someone in the recruiting process, given the choice between getting PTSD and a pension or not getting PTSD, I would much prefer not getting PTSD.

 

[the 48th regulator]

PTSD

I am going to start out with a question, who here knows the testing involved regarding being diagnosed with PTSD?   What about the follow up treatment, anyone ever experience it?

Reason why I ask is I am in the process of being treated for this, and it has been over a year and still going without getting any sort of assessment from VAC.   Not to mention the myriad of tests and doctors that I have spoken to.   I have seen three of the most experienced Doctors in this field and they have been Phenomenal.   In fact I talked to one two days ago about this thread.

Her exact words were PTSD is very hard to "Fake" and if the people want to try to milk the system to get a bit of cash from VAC, and want to go through all of the process, then there is something much deeper wrong with them, that thy do not want to admit.   She has experience with people that have served from the Vietnam war when she was in the U.S, to many of the modern Canadian troops that are suffering today.

This disorder is not caused by an incident, or multiple incidents; it is only triggered by it.   What causes it to worsen is the treatment of the individual after it happens.   A feeling of helplessness when they system does not help you and recognize one suffers.   A lack of immediate treatment so one can rehabilitate, and be able to integrate back to society and work.   A feeling of betrayal when your peers and superiors claim one is week or faking it to get "Gravy Benefits" and skive of form work.

The list goes on.   The only thing that angers me is that a lot of the posters here mean good intent in this thread, regarding the hordes that are faking it.   But I, as one who is going to the system, would like all of the armchair critics and Psychologists to stop posting statements that they think are helping.   You are in fact causing more harm to the guys sitting on the fence and are really scared to seek the help. You are spooking them, and the longer it takes to seek help, the more damage is done which prolongs the healing.

I am further ashamed by those that have stated that they are suffering from PTSD and jumped on the "Death to Fakers" bandwagon.   You should know how painful and drawn out the process is, and should in fact encourage people to come forward to seek help, one place is here OSISS

dileas

tess

 

[GO!!!]

Tess,

It seems to me that you are part of the "some might be faking it, but that's OK if one person gets the help they need" group. I can't say that I agree with you.

On one hand, we have all borne witness to the hordes of POS that swarm the MIR/UMS at the mere mention of a ruck march, or PT in the snow, or a winter ptl ex <shudder>, and this does indeed color our opinions towards regular attendees of the base hospital. Some of those people are hurt, and need medical attention. But when Pte. Bloggins gets a "pt at own pace/no lifting/no marching/no loud noises" chit, and then is seen in the gym doing clean and jerks with 230lbs that evening, there is a remedial action taken, usually a charge.

With a stress injury, there is no recourse though. The symptoms are well documented, easily found, and impossible to refute. One individual was discovered last year, after claiming PTSD and being so stressed that he could not handle orders, uniforms or conflict with other people, to be working as a security guard in a mall very close to the base! He was investigated, convicted, and must now pay all of the pension monies back. Members of this site are so often keen to toss around terms like "MIR Commando" followed by a rolling eyes smiley, but when troops get an above - the - shoulders doc to check them out, suddenly they deserve reverence, because their injury is invisible.

This goes to prove that you need'nt be very smart to get a false PTSD claim, if you so desire. The fact that military health care professionals also seem to think that an extended period of leave is in order for most claimants adds to the potential the system has for abuse.

The case of the scammer above was given to us by a Med A in a recent (last year) PTSD seminar we had in my unit. Even the medical staff recognise that the system is being abused, they are often at a loss of how to fix it though too, in all but the most painfully obvious situations.

Finally, claiming certain members of this site to be "jumping on a bandwagon" for sticking to their convictions and speaking the truth, which many of us know to be true, on the basis that it will make legitmate claimants even less likely to come forward is a crock. Unless the abuse of the system is ferreted out and consequences are established for the theft of money and time, the stigma will surround all who are part of it, the scammers are the problem, not the people who point out that they exist. there is just some difficulty seperating the wheat from the chaff.

Good luck.

 

[the 48th regulator]

It seems to me that you are part of the "some might be faking it, but that's OK if one person gets the help they need" group. I can't say that I agree with you.

No GO!   I am part of the group that for many years did no want to claim that I was hurt, because I would have been blamed for faking it.   Of course I believe there are scammers, and your intension to point them out are not a negative towards the individuals, but to the system.   You have stated that, and made good example of how the system should fix itself with an example of the of the security guard that was caught.

My point is we are focusing not the fakers, the testing if done correctly should suss them out.   Trust me, I am seeing it now.   Will people be able to slip through the cracks?   Hell yeah, a thug will always find a way to beat the system.   But the way I have read it on here, maybe not by your post, but some others, is that the system is so broken that the fakers are cashing in on a pension in droves.

If it is just matter of going to the MIR and getting diagnosed with PTSD, get handed a chit and some scepacol, then head down to the atm machine to draw the pension for a night of boozing.   Hell I would have done that years ago.

What we should focus on is not the people who fake it, but recognizing the ones that are suffering and guiding them to get the help they need ASAP.   So that they can rehabilitate, and be integrated into whatever trade or position they had before.   That is where I do agree with you and this what the goal of the treatment is.  

If we do this, they fakers will be left on the wayside, not how it is right now which is the opposite.   We are concentrating on the actions of the wrong people, and giving them all the attention.

As for the ones I stated that are jumping on the band wagon, especially those that say are suffering, why not offer suggestions on how to fix it as opposed to just criticising the system and the fakers.

dileas

tess

 

[Bob F.]

Are two topic categories required here?
One for say," How to identify and punish system abusers."
The other "Positive steps to recovering from PTSD, and service related depression." 
Seems blending the two topics is counterproductive.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Are two topic categories required here?
One for say," How to identify and punish system abusers."
The other "Positive steps to recovering from PTSD, and service related depression."  
Seems blending the two topics is counterproductive.

Bob,

Welcome to army.ca. Ref your last: Get used to it Few subjects here, no matter how vigiliant we stay, seem to go off the rails at some point. It will either drift back, get split, or closed. Thanks for watching and suggesting though.

 

[Bob F.]

Thankyou RecceGuy for the kind welcome. Much respect to you.

I'm hoping to create opportunity for something good to come out of this topic, I'll bet you noticed.
I've been told that optimism is infectious and I try to inspire that if I can. We'll see how it goes.

 

[NavComm]

I was qualified about 10 years ago to do critical incident stress debriefing. I was a volunteer member of the RCMP victims services unit and we took the course through the Justice Institute of BC along with police, firefighters, ambulance attendants, nurses and other healthcare and mental health professionals.

It was taught that in an effort to try to reduce long-term stress after any 'critical incident' ie: fire or accident with loss of life that was witnessed by the professionals, a de-briefing should take place where just the professionals involved would meet with the debriefer and discuss the incident in confidence. Nothing was taboo, and nothing said in the room would be repeated outside of the room. Everyone was sworn to keep the conversation confidential.

The idea being - and it was touched on here with unit support and talking with fellow soldiers who had been through the same incidents - that it decreases the stress and allows the individuals the opportunity to 'get it all out'. Talking about stressful incidents, as opposed to keeping it bottled up, is one step towards recovery for those people suffering acute stress. I say one step, because for those who don't even know they may be suffering from it, this initial conversation may give them pause to think about how they really are reacting, and get them to seek more help sooner than later. It also gives them an initial contact person (the debriefer or a fellow soldier) to follow up with later.

I'm just wondering if the CF (given that I haven't had any exposure thus far in my limited military career), does in an organized way, debrief members returning from tours or any event that may trigger acute stress? I don't mean 'mission debriefing', I mean debrief the members on what they saw, how they reacted to it, and how they think it has affected or not affected them?

I hope this question is in keeping with the thread, although I realise I'm not directly commenting on the documentary, I am responding to the discussion and not in any way attempting to hi-jack the thread. If it's inappropriate to ask, then I apologize in advance. Thanks.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Do we have any of our CF PTSD counsellors or first line contacts on the board that can chime in?

 

[the 48th regulator]

I know of one,

PM sent to him right now.

dileas

tess

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

Just an opinion but perhaps we could look at it this way. One could assume that when a soldier joins the CF they are (for the most part) considered free of the mental stress that is attributed to PTSD with the exception of course being stresses occured prior to joining. No two soldiers are exactly alike and everyone deals with stress differently based on their genes/upbringing/training etc.

When put in a particular situation we can never speculate that what effects one, wont effect another.

Case in point, on Athena 0, our lav3 was plowed into by a civie cab. Two civillians critically injured and one dead. There were four of us in the lav and it was interesting during the critical incident debrief to see everyones varied reactions.On one hand there was the feelings of the driver who was stressed at the idea that one died. The guy in the back was confused as he was unaware of what had happened, and was thrust into extracting the survivors 30 seconds after jumping out of a darkened lav. For us in the turret, all we saw was a cab suddenly veer towards us and we were left with the thought it could have been a suicide bomber.

As for the idea that antimalarial pills attribute to the stresses, noone knows. For some people im sure they did but for the large part, those that didn't react looked down on those claiming problems.

I am convinced that our proggression from the days of shooting troops that claimed to be affected, to acknowledging "battle shock" to present day. We have gone in a very positive direction but sadly there will always be those who see PTSD as their ticket to a pension which discredits the troops that really need the help.

 

[NavComm]

Shelldrake, thank you for the post. If I understand you correctly, you did have a critical incident stress debriefing following the accident?

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

I hate to say it but that was only because our RSM who was employed seperately at KMNB took it upon himself to hold one and in my opinion they should be mandatory within 12 hours of any incident. It gives everyone a chance to discuss what happened and gets a load off rather than bottling things up.

 

[NavComm]

Maybe it should be a standard. I know from the training I took, that it is effective in cases for front line workers such as police, fire and ambulance who see a lot of horrible things in their day-to-day work, at least as a way of recognizing signs of stress early.

It's also a good measuring stick to see how people cope after repeated exposure to acute stress. For example, someone may have done several tours with no significant impairment over a series of incidents and then, for no apparent reason, just reaches his/her limit. This would probably be recognized early if that person were to debrief on a regular basis. IMO it gives the member insight into their own stress responses and lets them explore those responses in a safe environment with others who have experienced the same things.

People who choose to be soldiers, sailors, police, etc. are no different than others when it comes to stress, except they are exposed to events that most other people are not, on a regular basis. It's the training they receive that prepares them to better cope with it, and the care they receive afterward that enables them to carry on in their profession.

As for the CBC presentation, I find a lot of their shows are more focussed on giving fodder to the peaceniks to further their 'war is bad, Canada is a nation of Peacekeepers' agenda. Just my .02.

 

[3rd Horseman]

Tess,

I am going to start out with a question, who here knows the testing involved regarding being diagnosed with PTSD?  What about the follow up treatment, anyone ever experience it?

  You are probably right lets leave the fake stuff behind for now and focus on whats really important the guys that are suffering...

  The testing is several fold and is based on a scale of results, I don't want to detail it here but will PM you the stuff. Would not want to contribute to false claims from valid ones and from those with mental illness not associated with PTSD.

  The follow up treatment is long and slow but is effective. It usually consists of two experts working on you in combined approaches these professionals are you Psychiatrist and Psychologist. To explain the difference simply is as follows: The psychiatrist will diagnose and perscribes a treatment to include drugs if required and will monitor the treatment. The Psychologist will do the day to day therapy on you as perscribed by the Psychiatrist. Both must work together and you must get along  with and trust both if not get another till you are comfortable. I personally think Rapid Eye Desensitisation  Movement is the cats meow. For me it was the difference between night and day. Some have called it very difficult and ineffective, I can agree with the difficult part but in the words of my doc those that do the whole treatment and stick with it usually have good results. It is those that quit it have bad results. As for stages and length of time I have spoken to many sufferers and it would appear that it takes about 10 years to come through it the sooner you start the better. You will never be cured or away from it but you will be able to live with it and so will those around you.

  All the detail stuff we can PM and that goes for anyone else, no need to lay it out on the open site.

 

[TCBF]

In regards to CISD Debriefs,

When the Para Coy of 3VP was bombed at Tarnak Farm in 2002, I was the Alpha of the Coyote Tp on QRF.  The bomb shook the camp.  I was on duty in the turret and woke the rest of the crew and got them mounted.  As we were on QRF, we were ready to roll in about three minutes max.  The Tp Ldr and Delta (Charlie crew was 'away') were holding at the Rosegarden, waiting to go back out to Tarnak and escort the Para Coy back to camp (policy of 3d Bde 101 Abn Div was that all vehs lving camp would be armd or escorted by armour).  Once she was told by SHQ to move out to Tarnak and secure the site, I told her we were mtd and rdy.  She told me to get Bravo mtd and rdy, and Bravo reported in as already mtd and rdy.  SHQ then moved us to the Rosegarden, and we escorted out the Bison Amb after dismounting it's MO and sending him (on foot) back to the hospital.  We took up positions at Tarnak  opposite the Tp Ldr and Delta, and I gave myself and Bravo arcs of fire. I dismounted at one point to find the Coy 2i/c and pass the msg from Recce Sqn that all of our avail assets were at his disposal. Lasting impression: the calmness and professionalism of the SNCOs of the Para Coy as they swept the area in the dark looking for what had to be looked for and marking with glow sticks that which they found.  We spent the morning escorting vehs to and from the site, and were relieved by a Coy of US Infantry and the OC's Coyote later.  We then moved into the camp and dismounted as a Troop in one spot (rarely done) and had a Troop debrief in the Sqn tent.  We then went back out to our run-ups.  During the afternoon, a CFMS WO did the perimeter, stopping at the QRF Coyotes and conducting individual interviews behind our fire positions.  The WO would then tell the Coyote Crew Commander any issues he needed to know about his crew. 

I do not know what procedures the Para Coy went through. 

Back in Canada, the whole BG had individual Psych interviews as part of our part two medicals.

Thats my take on it.  There are probably  835 other versions.

Tom

 

[NavComm]

That's interesting that it is done then, maybe not always, but seems to be done when someone in the unit has the training to do it. When I took the training, the reason we had people from all elements (fire, police, ambulance) was so that peers could debrief peers. It was never expected that an RCMP victim services worker would debrief an ambulance attendant or vice-versa. It was to develop training for peer-to-peer debriefings.

Side note: it's my understanding that it was actually the CPR that got the ball rolling for the Justice Institute to send instructors where I lived, because there had been so many train accidents that the engineers were having a hard time returning to work after witnessing the carnage, so CPR sent railway workers to the course as well. Peers helping peers.

IMO soldiers might not be too open with how they are really processing the stress if they think they could be sent away from the rest of the platoon, (hospitalized or ostracized), so I would think that peer-to-peer debriefing might be more effective? I'm not suggesting that peers would 'cover up' for someone who is possibly about to melt down, but sometimes just unloading on people close to you is therapy in itself and unloading on someone who might write a bad report on you for it, isn't very smart if it means you could be seen as weak or unfit for duty.

 

[NCRCrow]

Forum: (enquiring minds what to know)

I did some more research on that female steward (NG) who was suffering from Gulf War Syndrome.

She was with the first crew of Protecteur, who flew home before hostilities broke out. She rotated home in Jan 01/1991 , 2 weeks before hostilities broke out.

The Protecteur also operated in the GOO and SAG mostly.

I am even more skeptical of the circumstances of a Steward on a Fast Attack Tanker having Gulf War Syndrome at sea.

And to further clarify, I believe in PTSD and have seen the results on sailors from Swiss Air and the SAR MV leader L .

I am just not convinced at Stewards having Gulf War Syndrome in the Gulf of Oman serving toast to the wardroom.

Crow

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The Protecteur also operated in the GOO and SAG mostly.

Actually, we served mostly in the CAG and SAG- and never in the GOO (I should know- I was there on PRO first crew.)  for what it's worth, we were the most forward operated (in relation to Iraq) tanker in the Gulf and the only one that got employed half the time as a destroyer.

if it is the female steward which I am thinking of (I can only remember two), trust me when I say that there were a whole bag of issues present with her...Gulf War or not.

don't know if this helps or hurts the current discussion...

 

[NCRCrow]

fair enough..she must have served you in the Wardroom