Court Martial discussion (merged)

[mariomike]

For punishments we have:
- Summary Trials and
- Courts Martial

Regarding the difference between the two,

Summary Trial vs Courts Martial 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/113353.0

 

[ModlrMike]

As an SSM, when I conducted a Summary Trial, I looked at the history of the accused and what the unit usually gave for the offence.  If there was a chance of the member being confined to barracks, I told them to be prepared and have everything ready in case he was found guilty and sentenced to confinement to barracks.  Sometimes he just got a fine and went on his merry way, but he was prepared to spend a week in barracks.

In addition, I would say that a good Assisting Officer will not only help the member achieve the best possible outcome, but prepare them for the worst. Telling them to pack a bag falls into that category.

 

[ontheedge]

Wow thanks, this has been helpful!

1.  Being sequestered in Barracks - is that for Reserve as well as for Regular Force?
2.  Where are the barracks located in Toronto?  e.g. is there one at 660 Fleet in Toronto?  Dennison??

That's crazy that a CO can order up to 21 days... is there phone or internet or email access while in barracks?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Wow thanks, this has been helpful!

1.  Being sequestered in Barracks - is that for Reserve as well as for Regular Force?
2.  Where are the barracks located in Toronto?  e.g. is there one at 660 Fleet in Toronto?  Dennison??

That's crazy that a CO can order up to 21 days... is there phone or internet or email access while in barracks?

Not sure about the army side, but on ships this just means you have your shore leave suspended. It doesn't pause, so if over that two-three weeks most of it is at sea, really makes no difference.

There is a routine for personnel under punishment, so they have to report to the folks on duty at specific times.  We had a few guys catch that, and normally the chiefs find something useful for them to do so they stay busy.  Giving spaces a good cleaning ('Sunday routine'), touching up paint, etc. are fall backs, but if we were fueling or something they were part of that evolution (which means someone else can get shore leave). Same idea for the base, and there is usually something going on over the weekends where a PUP could get voluntold to help with so they are being productive.

They still had some free time with the same normal access to things they had otherwise (except maybe use of the mess bar?) but it's not jail or anything. 

CO's of operational units can make decisions that put people's life and billions of dollars of equipment at risk, so a CTB of 21 days isn't really that big a deal in comparison.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Wow thanks, this has been helpful!

1.  Being sequestered in Barracks - is that for Reserve as well as for Regular Force?
2.  Where are the barracks located in Toronto?  e.g. is there one at 660 Fleet in Toronto?  Dennison??

That's crazy that a CO can order up to 21 days... is there phone or internet or email access while in barracks?

While technically it is a punishment that can be imposed on a Reservist despite some logistical limitations; however, to do so to the typical Reservist (a part-timer) would be counterproductive.  If you sentenced a part-time soldier to confinement to quarters or extra duty and drill, then you would have to pay him for those days that he did the punishment.  The most likely punishment would be a fine.

 

[dapaterson]

Some Reserve COs, cognizant of their soldier's financial situation, have been known to impose extra duties along with a fine, as a partial mitigation of the potential impact of a fine on someone in financial distress.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Some Reserve COs, cognizant of their soldier's financial situation, have been known to impose extra duties along with a fine, as a partial mitigation of the potential impact of a fine on someone in financial distress.

As a CO, many years decades ago I was always conscious of the impact of a punishment on a family. I knew that when I fined a married soldier I was, in fact taking money out of the household budget that fed and clothed a wife and kids, too; equally I knew that many soldiers had (needed) part time jobs and CB or extra work and drill could also cause some unintended hardships.

It did not deter me from punishing ... but it made me think about the consequences. It also made troop commanders delve, properly, into the lives and circumstances of the soldiers they commanded because I expected them, as assisting officers, to assist me, too, by telling me about their soldiers situations.

There is a balance to be struck between our duty and our powers.

 

[ontheedge]

It did not deter me from punishing ... but it made me think about the consequences. It also made troop commanders delve, properly, into the lives and circumstances of the soldiers they commanded because I expected them, as assisting officers, to assist me, too, by telling me about their soldiers situations.

There is a balance to be struck between our duty and our powers.

Wow nicely said! 

You've actually now turned me to another question:  can a soldier refuse an order that violates what he or she believes is an ethos principle.  I guess what I’m trying to understand is that if a soldier feels an order is demeaning or immoral, can he refuse to comply, state his reason, and move on. Or should the soldier expect to have to explain himself before several superiors and potentially a court martial.

[edited to remove gratuitous examples]

 

[ModlrMike]

The answers you seek can be found here: QR&O Chapter 102

The short answers are:

Scenario 1 - you're not subject to the CSD, and there is no obligation to follow these orders;
Scenario 2 - not likely to happen, so your question is moot. CO's don't get there by being foolish or capricious.

Even if the CO were to push the points in either or both scenario, then they wouldn't be COs for long.

FWIW, please stop asking crazy hypothetical questions.

 

[ontheedge]

Thank you for the answers.  I do appreciate it. My hypothetical questions were meant to draw out principles which you have elucidated in your answer.