COTP

[aesop081]

Your immediate CoC has no authority in the process. They cannot deny it or even approve it, it is not within their arcs of fire. Their only part is processing the initial paperwork and forward it to the PSO. Your unit being short manned is neither here nor there, the only factor is the overall strength of your entire MOS, not at the unit level.

If your MOS is "red" or "yellow", the career manager shop may have established a limit on the number of OT "out" but that is not controlled by your CoC at the unit level.

 

[DAA]

the OC is likely to not support it since we need the bodies.  I'm not sure whether or not I should be concerned over that, since it is through the COTP.

Personnally, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.  I have seen many an OT request that was not supported at various levels of the members CoC that were approved.  Your unit only has two choices, recommended or not recommended, both of which should be substantiated.

 

[McFarlane]

If it comes down to it, and my CoC says no, then the memo train stops there, is there anything I can do?  I've been looking through OT CFAO's and memo related CFAO's and so far I've come up dry.

 

[DAA]

If it comes down to it, and my CoC says no, then the memo train stops there, is there anything I can do?  I've been looking through OT CFAO's and memo related CFAO's and so far I've come up dry.

I don't believe that your CoC can deny you the basic right to apply.  They can choose not to provide a favourable recommendation but I really don't think they can stop you from applying...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If it comes down to it, and my CoC says no, then the memo train stops there, is there anything I can do?  I've been looking through OT CFAO's and memo related CFAO's and so far I've come up dry.

If that happens contact the PSO shop directly.  Seriously.

If it happens, it wouldn't be the first time in the CF and although it's complete BS, it won't be the last.  I had *issues* with my CofC and they mistakenly thought I'd give up when they tried putting up road blocks (Career Mgr from trade I OTd out of told my Div Chief he wouldn't be replacing me as it was a Pri 6 position), but I contacted the PSO shop and asked to speak to the Formation PSO.  PSO called my CO and said "uhh, you guys can't do that".

I didn't make any friends in my old unit and with my former Career Mgr, but I got my file thru to Selection and was lucky enough to get my OT.  You can guage life would not have been great if I would NOT have gotten selected, but if you want it bad enough, you gotta throw the dice.  That is a completely personal decision, and one that worked out well for me.  Know the risks you are facing and make the best decision you can if/when you need to.

WRT to limitations to who can OT, apply for OT....all trades are open to OT out, but the trade health determines what % of the TES (Trained Effective Strength) is allowed to OT out.  2% for green trades, 1% for yellow/amber trades and 0.5% for red trades.  That is CF policy.

Approving Authority is, IIRC, D Mil C or DCMA. 

 

[McG]

If it comes down to it, and my CoC says no, then the memo train stops there, is there anything I can do?  I've been looking through OT CFAO's and memo related CFAO's and so far I've come up dry.

Every soldier has the right to an audience with the CO.  You could plead your case there.

 

[McFarlane]

If that happens contact the PSO shop directly.  Seriously.

Unfortunately, it looks like that may be the route I am going to need to take.  Thanks to everyone for the help and advice on the matter.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I had the same fight at the same level it seems you are, at the unit level for me it was even the CO.  The PSO shops are aware of issues with ppl trying to be road-blocked.  Like I said, if you are going to step outside the CofC and approach PSO, consider the possible target that could end up on your back.

Quick question, are you dealing with CFB Halifax?

 

[McFarlane]

I had the same fight at the same level it seems you are, at the unit level for me it was even the CO.  The PSO shops are aware of issues with ppl trying to be road-blocked.  Like I said, if you are going to step outside the CofC and approach PSO, consider the possible target that could end up on your back.

Quick question, are you dealing with CFB Halifax?

No, not CFB Halifax.

I'm making sure to keep my CoC in the loop every step of the way, ensuring I'm not going completely behind their back.  But I still understand there may be a "target on my back", I'm just trying to minimize the negative effects as much as possible.  I'm still relying on them for things like PSO Referrals and such, but there have been delays in even that simple process, that I don't think are accidental. 

 

[McFarlane]

So instead of starting a new thread, I'll add to this one since it is quite similar in nature. 

Does anyone have any insight into the COTP selection process?  How much bearing does CoC support (or lack thereof) have on an application to highly competitive trades (like, oh, let's say SAR Tech)?

The reasons for lack of support are not because of my inability or ineptitude, but due to the fact that I was posted to this (highly sought after) position this past APS, and am needed to assist in running courses this coming fiscal year. 

On another note, my file has gone to the PSO and is out of reach of the CoC.  No toe stepping or bridge burning required  .

Sorry for all the brackets.

 

[PuckChaser]

So your CoC is trying to screw around your career because they need you for a few courses? Great troops first attitude.

Is there a spot where they make a recommendation on your suitability to OT? Did they make a bad recommendation? Unless they did, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Retired and Broken]

So instead of starting a new thread, I'll add to this one since it is quite similar in nature. 

Does anyone have any insight into the COTP selection process?  How much bearing does CoC support (or lack thereof) have on an application to highly competitive trades (like, oh, let's say SAR Tech)?

The reasons for lack of support are not because of my inability or ineptitude, but due to the fact that I was posted to this (highly sought after) position this past APS, and am needed to assist in running courses this coming fiscal year. 

On another note, my file has gone to the PSO and is out of reach of the CoC.  No toe stepping or bridge burning required  .

Sorry for all the brackets.

The hardest part of a COTP process with a COC that doesn't support you, is getting it to the PSO in the first place. If at this point it hasn't "disappeared" then it is out of your COCs influence.

When it comes to the Sar Tech COTP, your "paper side" of your application is only worth 25% of your overall suitability. If your PERs\PDRs, conduct, past course placements, PT  scores are decent, then there isn't much your COC can do to all of a sudden make you look bad.

 

[McFarlane]

Is there a spot where they make a recommendation on your suitability to OT?

Just the minutes on my memo each step of the way, up to the CO saying they don't support.  The PSO referral form outlines all good characterisitcs, then finishes off with "I do not support this OT".

Did they make a bad recommendation? Unless they did, I wouldn't worry about it.

I don't think it was that bad.  I also got letters of recommendation from my previous CoC to kind of tip the scales in my favour after the lack of support in my current CoC.

So your CoC is trying to screw around your career because they need you for a few courses? Great troops first attitude.

I have no hard feelings, since I am in a trade that is hurting for "middle managment" so to speak, and I see where they are coming from.  It's just bad timing really.

I was just wondering if the review boards even took the minutes or CoC's hopes and dreams into account when there is a lack of support, but nothing bad said.

The hardest part of a COTP process with a COC that doesn't support you, is getting it to the PSO in the first place. If at this point it hasn't "disappeared" then it is out of your COCs influence.

When it comes to the Sar Tech COTP, your "paper side" of your application is only worth 25% of your overall suitability. If your PERs\PDRs, conduct, past course placements, PT  scores are decent, then there isn't much your COC can do to all of a sudden make you look bad.

That's good to hear.  I'm kind of embarassed when I think about it now, but when I wrote that post I was really wondering if the Sel Board cared about my CoC's status if I were to leave, which is ridiculous.

 

[PuckChaser]

Sounds like you're fine. I disagree that your CO would put "do not support" simply because he'd be short a person, but that's another topic. They can not support for any reason they want, but ultimately its the PSO that interviews you and will write whether they find you would be suitable for the trade you want to get into, as that's they're job to know.

 

[Retired and Broken]

Just the minutes on my memo each step of the way, up to the CO saying they don't support.  The PSO referral form outlines all good characterisitcs, then finishes off with "I do not support this OT".

I don't think it was that bad.  I also got letters of recommendation from my previous CoC to kind of tip the scales in my favour after the lack of support in my current CoC.

I have no hard feelings, since I am in a trade that is hurting for "middle managment" so to speak, and I see where they are coming from.  It's just bad timing really.

I was just wondering if the review boards even took the minutes or CoC's hopes and dreams into account when there is a lack of support, but nothing bad said.

That's good to hear.  I'm kind of embarassed when I think about it now, but when I wrote that post I was really wondering if the Sel Board cared about my CoC's status if I were to leave, which is ridiculous.

So your PSO wrote that he/she does not support? If that is the case, I still would not be overly worried. The PSOs have a loooong history of not supporting applications based on their complete misunderstanding of the trade and it's needs.  Yours truly had a "recommended with reservations"  by the BPSO based on the lack of related courses (Dive, jump etc.)..despite an above average Infantry career. In the end, the board makes the final decision and they are well aware of the issues. Give it your all if you get on selection as that is where it actually matters.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think that he meant the CO signed "do not support" on the COTP application form, Part 4 or 5 IIRC, vice the PSO Selection Report (the 2 page one where your suitability for the new trade is assessed and scored).

I'll go out on a limb and say both the PSOs and Selection Boards are used to seeing COTP/VOTP applications that aren't 'supported by the chain of command'.  ;D

In my COTP, the CO part stated I didn't meet the pre-req's to even apply.  That was looked into by the PSO staff, confirmed incorrect and my file went to selection and I was lucky enough to get selected.  Because of the BS flying around, the Snr PSO took my file over and made it known to me that they were used to this kind of balderdash in the PSO world and a CO recommendation to 'not support' had to be justified to hold weight.

My OT was just at the end of PER season, and I remember clearly the comment in it how "EITS interprets CF policy and regs in a manner to his benefit" or words to that effect.  Gotta love parting gifts!  :nod:

 

[DisplacedMaritimer]

Okay so I've done some searching and I'm looking for some additional information that I can't really find, or is very outdated. I recently visited my PSO here in Gagetown and was inquiring about Int Op and Met Tech as viable OT options. I had just missed the AVOTP closing date at the time. I noticed that COTP could be applied for at any time throughout the year, but was advised that this was a very strange year for OT's and the timeline was all screwed up. Messages are coming for AVOTP right now (congrats to those getting them) and I'm wondering if anyone works around a PSO's office might have more information on when I can apply for the COTP program for 2013/2014, if it's still any time or have they stopped it all together.

The PSO I spoke with advised me that because they're looking at streamlining the programs he really had no idea if they were going to be accepting applications under COTP because they were looking at combining all programs to an AVOTP-like program.

My main questions would be:

1. If I apply to COTP for Int Op, can I list a second choice that would not normally be available, such as Met Tech, and would they look at it as a viable options even if AVOTP is already closed?
2. Are they even accepting COTP applications at the present time, or are things being changed for the upcoming competition?
3. If accepted for an OT via COTP, do they cut messages throughout the year, or only at specific times as with other OT programs?

I've read the CFAO's/DAOD's and done quite a bit of searching, and these questions just can't seem to be answered anywhere. Thanks to anyone who can provide some more information. Feel free to inbox me.

Thanks.

 

[DAA]

I've read the CFAO's/DAOD's and done quite a bit of searching, and these questions just can't seem to be answered anywhere.

The "winds" of change may be amongst us, which is why your PSO can't answer your questions.....

 

[DisplacedMaritimer]

The "winds" of change may be amongst us, which is why your PSO can't answer your questions.....

Very possible. However it's impossible to see him every month for an update as to whether someone has made a decision as to what/when they will accept applications for what programs. Far easier to ask an open forum of individuals who may know more than I once a decision on the matter has been made.

My meeting was 2 months ago, which is both a very short amount of time, and an eternity when it comes to policy making. If anyone has an update to provide, it would be much appreciated.

 

[DAA]

Very possible. However it's impossible to see him every month for an update as to whether someone has made a decision as to what/when they will accept applications for what programs. Far easier to ask an open forum of individuals who may know more than I once a decision on the matter has been made.

My meeting was 2 months ago, which is both a very short amount of time, and an eternity when it comes to policy making. If anyone has an update to provide, it would be much appreciated.

These are times, when I get very annoyed!!!  If you are dealing with someone on an issue and you know there may or may not be a change coming down the pipe, you should be advising those people of that!!!

So you need to go back to your PSO and lay it on the line......it's a basic question to ask "What is the current status of my application?"  If they can't or won't answer that or get wishy washy, then they are NOT doing their job!