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Constructing the CCG Hero class [Merged]

  • Thread starter Thread starter jollyjacktar
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Sorry- I misunderstood. I thought they were looking at re-rolling the ships they are currently building at Seaspan.

A fight between the Coast Guard and PSPC on what the priority should be? The Govt caught in the horns of a dilemma because it has delayed ship procurement for so long?
 
SeaKingTacco said:
Sorry- I misunderstood. I thought they were looking at re-rolling the ships they are currently building at Seaspan.

A fight between the Coast Guard and PSPC on what the priority should be? The Govt caught in the horns of a dilemma because it has delayed ship procurement for so long?

This is the big problem for NSPS, a good idea 20 years to late.
 
More on US angle:
Coast Guard Leaders Are Swinging for the Fences

After years of bemoaning its insufficient budget levels, the Coast Guard is pushing for a major spending increase in fiscal year 2019.

In his recent State of the Coast Guard address, Commandant Adm. Paul Zukunft used a baseball analogy to explain the service’s new approach to seeking funding.

“I directed my senior leaders to abandon a … bunt stance when it comes to building our budget and approach the plate by swinging for the fences,” he said in his prepared remarks. “Seize the initiative.”

For 2019, the Coast Guard is requesting $11.7 billion, nearly $1 billion or 9 percent more than it requested for 2018. That amount is about $1 billion more than was enacted in 2017.

The spending request for its procurement, construction and improvements account jumped 58 percent, from $1.2 billion to $1.9 billion. About $1.5 billion would go toward new vessels including $750 million for detail design and construction of new polar icebreakers, according to a Coast Guard fact sheet. The service recently released to industry a request for proposals for a new icebreaker, with the first one slated for delivery in 2023. ...
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2018/4/2/coast-guard-leaders-are-swinging-for-the-fences

Poor CCG.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Compare costs of planned USCG icebreakers with the one from Seaspan planned for CCG (good luck with cost and delivery date):

1) USCG:

...
The following is the April 18, 2018 Congressional Research Service report, Coast Guard Polar Icebreaker Modernization: Background and Issues for Congress.

...The Coast Guard wants to begin construction of the first new heavy polar icebreaker in FY2019 and have it enter service in 2023...

The acquisition cost of a new heavy polar icebreaker had earlier been estimated informally at roughly $1 billion, but the Coast Guard and Navy now believe that three heavy polar icebreakers could be acquired for a total cost of about $2.1 billion, or an average of about $700 million per ship. The first ship will cost more than the other two because it will incorporate design costs for the class and be at the start of the production learning curve for the class. An April 13, 2018, Government Accountability Office (GAO) report on the polar icebreaker program states that the Coast Guard has reduced its estimated cost for the first heavy polar icebreaker to less than $900 million, which would imply an average cost of something more than $600 million each for the second and third icebreakers...
https://news.usni.org/2018/05/03/report-congress-coast-guard-icebreaker-program-2

2) CCG:

...
[DFO 2017-18] Status report on transformational and Major Crown Projects
...
Polar Icebreaker Project
...
    2021- Contract award for construction; and
    2024- Delivery of Polar Icebreaker.

Progress report and explanation of variances: Federal Budgets 2008 and 2012 allocated funding for the procurement of Canada’s first polar icebreaker. Total funding of $1,297.8 million has been earmarked for the execution of this project...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Poor Canada.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Don't see a huge difference.  Am I missing something?  The figure works out to around 1 billion U.S. and if you figure in the operating costs over the ship's life there doesn't appear to be much discrepancy
 
YZT580: USCG icebreakers work out, at US$700 million each, to C$900 million.  Whereas the one CCG ship is notionally priced at C$1.3 million (and most likely to cost more, by the way these are all just acquisition costs).

Makes no sense to build by Seaspan and probably could get much cheaper than in US from Finnish yard.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Your assuming the US prices are based on reality, they have not built an icebreaker since the 90's and we have seen how well they have done on other programs.
 
Colin P: 

Your assuming the US prices are based on reality, they have not built an icebreaker since the 90's and we have seen how well they have done on other programs.

Same applies to our shipbuilding in spades  ;).

Mark
Ottawa
 
Colin P said:
Your assuming the US prices are based on reality, they have not built an icebreaker since the 90's and we have seen how well they have done on other programs.

It also assumes the same accounting method (a bad assumption).
 
Accounting differences was the reason for my question.  But we can resolve the icebreaker impasse very quickly through a leasing arrangement with at least two options available.  With that problem postponed Seaspan can start work on the replenishment ships and get that on the way to being resolved and then re-schedule new ice breakers on their completion.  That is one solution and I am sure there are others.  The only hang up is getting Ottawa to actually make a decision instead of punting it into the future and with the re-incarnation of Mr. Dithers at the helm that is unlikely.
 
MarkOttawa said:
Colin P: 

Same applies to our shipbuilding in spades  ;).

Mark
Ottawa

I think our program is farther along in the reality curve, however they have advantages of many yards already capable to build, where we worked hard to dismantle almost every yard that could build ships and now need to rebuild that capability.
 
Canada now seeks only three converted icebreakers

Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC) is in negotiations with Federal Fleet Services and Chantier Davie for the conversion of three modern icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard (CCG), PSPC confirmed to Jane’s on 1 June.

PSPC had initially sought four of the ships.

Federal Fleet has been in negotiations with the Canadian government since January, after proposing its Project Resolute as a solution to replace the CCG’s icebreakers, which have been in service on average for 35 years or more. These icebreakers are plagued by breakdowns, reducing the number of days they are operational and causing numerous ice-related difficulties on the St Lawrence River during the winter.
http://www.janes.com/article/80612/canada-now-seeks-only-three-converted-icebreakers
 
Feds close to deal with Davie for icebreakers

OTTAWA — The federal government is close to a deal with Davie Shipbuilding that would see the Quebec shipyard provide several used icebreakers to bolster the Canadian Coast Guard's own aging fleet.

While final details are still being worked out, sources have told The Canadian Press that an agreement is imminent after months of intense — and at times contentious — closed-door negotiations.

The pending deal represents a win for Davie and the Quebec government, both of which have been demanding more federal work for the shipbuilder after it laid off 800 workers at its shipyard in Levis late last year.

It is not, however, exactly what Davie originally proposed: the company wanted to convert three medium icebreakers and one heavy vessel and lease them to the coast guard, whose own fleet is nearing the end of its useful life.

The company will still do conversion work on the three medium icebreakers, sources say, but the coast guard will take full ownership of the vessels instead of leasing them.

The two sides also remain far apart on the heavy icebreaker, which Davie has been pushing hard despite strong reticence from senior coast guard officials who say it does not meet their needs.

The federal shipbuilding strategy does already include plans for one heavy icebreaker, the Canadian Coast Guard ship John G. Diefenbaker, which could explain the coast guard's hesitation, said University of Calgary professor Rob Huebert.

"A lot of effort went into the design of the Diefenbaker," said Huebert, who has worked extensively with the coast guard. "If I was the coast guard, I would be terrified that if I got the Davie ship, I would not get the Diefenbaker."

Diefenbaker, however, isn't due to be delivered until the mid-2020s, at the earliest.

Word of the pending deal comes in the face of even more bad news for the coast guard's existing icebreakers, which are on average more than 35 years old and have lost hundreds of operational days in recent years due to mechanical breakdowns.

The most recent headache came in late April, when CCGS Terry Fox ran aground near Bide Arm, N.L.

The vessel sailed back to St. John's under its own power, an official said, where repairs were conducted on two holes in its hull, but it was later determined that more work would be required to get it back into service.

That leaves the 49-year-old CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent as the coast guard's only heavy icebreaker until the Terry Fox is up and operational again, though coast guard commissioner Jeffery Hutchinson said the service could cover for it.

"It will be back in service as part of our Arctic program this summer," Hutchinson told a parliamentary committee on Tuesday, "and we're able to cover all Arctic requirements in our program by reallocating resources internally."

But coast guard officials have conceded for years that they need additional icebreakers to supplement their fleet, and suggested they could turn to novel solutions such as leasing vessels or hiring private companies to help them.

"We're stuck in this kind of limbo with the coast guard where their vessels keep getting longer in the tooth and what they need to do just keeps going up and up and up," said Huebert.

"There is a dire need for them getting some modernized icebreakers. No question about it."

The negotiations between the federal government and Davie have nonetheless been steeped in politics.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau surprised many, including the Canadian Coast Guard and Davie itself, when he announced the launch of talks while visiting Quebec City in January.

The announcement followed concerns about the current icebreaker fleet, but also an intense lobbying campaign by Davie as well as the Quebec government and federal opposition parties on the shipyard's behalf.

It also coincided with an RCMP investigation into allegations Vice-Admiral Mark Norman leaked cabinet secrets to Davie to keep the Liberals from cancelling a $700-million contract to provide the navy with an interim support ship.

Norman was suspended as the military's second-in-command last year and charged with breach of trust this past March. He has denied any wrongdoing and vowed to fight the charge in court.

Most of the work on the interim support ship was finished late last year, at which point Davie laid off 800 workers; the shipyard says it did not have enough work for them, but that it is hoping to hire some back for the icebreakers.

Davie initially proposed leasing icebreakers to the coast guard in April 2016, after acquiring the rights to four vessels that were destined for use in Alaska's offshore oil and gas industry until a downturn in the market.
https://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/8652564-feds-close-to-deal-with-davie-for-icebreakers/
 
Uzlu said:
https://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/8652564-feds-close-to-deal-with-davie-for-icebreakers/

Maybe now they'll stop their whining.
 
About time, note purchase (real cheap) not lease--a lot of Quebec provincial and federal politics pushing this now:

Ottawa makes deal to buy three icebreakers for coast guard
Deal avoids major work slowdown, layoffs at the Davie shipyard ahead of Quebec provincial election

The Liberal government has concluded a deal with a Quebec shipyard to purchase, through a sole-source contract, three medium icebreakers to relieve pressure on the Canadian Coast Guard's aging fleet.

The agreement struck with Chantier Davie of Levis, Que., which operates the Davie shipyard, was announced Friday [June 22] in a release by Public Services and Procurement Canada.

No dollar figure was included in the statement, but sources close to the negotiations said that between the purchase and modification phase, the agreement could be worth just under $500 million [emphasis added].

Negotiations to acquire the vessels were launched in January after Prime Minister Justin Trudeau abruptly announced the plan in a Radio-Canada interview.

There has been growing concern in Quebec about not only the shipyard and its workforce of roughly 1,300, but about the coast guard's ability to break ice in the St. Lawrence River.

Competing shipyards will have two weeks to challenge the sole-source contract and demonstrate they can deliver ships with similar — or better — capabilities.

    Analysis
    Why the Liberals really don't want to talk about leasing icebreakers

    Aging icebreaker fleet raises concern in Quebec

When talks started with Davie, the federal government was looking to lease or buy four ships which would be converted from existing vessels. Those vessels had been intended for use in Alaska's offshore oil and gas industry until there was a downturn in the market.

The deal that was struck involves a straight-up purchase of three icebreakers, with the Davie yard set to complete a series of modifications, said the sources.
Contract bound to raise questions

It's a significant deal on political, legal and corporate levels.

The agreement avoids a major work slowdown at the yard — and the resulting layoffs — ahead of a provincial election which will see the Liberal government of Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard fighting for its life.

The contract also is bound to raise questions about the National Shipbuilding Strategy, which was introduced by the former Conservative government and championed by the Liberals since they came to power in 2015.

The Davie shipyard was in bankruptcy when the strategy was announced — so it was excluded from the NSS, which has seen Ottawa form a special relationship with Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax and Seaspan of Vancouver. Irving and Seaspan are the go-to companies for federal ship construction.

    Federal government looks to lease icebreakers from Quebec shipyard Davie

    Quebec ports could lose business if aging icebreakers not replaced, documents warn

The coast guard's new heavy icebreaker is supposed to be built by Seaspan, but the project is still years away from construction [emphasis added]...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coast-guard-icebreakers-davie-1.4718592

Mark
Ottawa
 
Gov't news release:

Canada to Acquire Three Interim [when buying them, not leasing?] Icebreakers
...
The Government of Canada is committed to providing the women and men of the Canadian Coast Guard with the equipment they need to keep Canadian waters safe, while supporting economic growth.

On behalf of the Canadian Coast Guard, Public Services and Procurement Canada has issued an Advanced Contract Award Notice (ACAN) to Chantier Davie of Lévis, Quebec, for the acquisition and conversion of three medium commercial icebreakers.  This ensures a fair, competitive process allowing any supplier with a comparable option to also submit a proposal before a contract is awarded.

The ACAN confirms Canada’s intention to enter into a contract with Chantier Davie. Other interested suppliers have 15 calendar days to signal their interest in bidding for this contract, by submitting a “statement of capabilities” that meets the requirements laid out in the ACAN.

These ships would provide interim capability for the Canadian Coast Guard, while replacement vessels  are being built under the National Shipbuilding Strategy [emphasis added--plural? only one planned, years away from delivery by Seaspan]. Icebreakers are essential to ensuring that Canadian ports remain open during Canada’s ice seasons, ensuring goods such as fresh produce and fuel are delivered safely...

Quick facts

    This acquisition will consist of purchasing a class of three existing Anchor Handling Tug Supply icebreakers [emphasis added, definition would be nice].

    These ships will be used to backfill for Canadian Coast Guard vessels while they are undergoing maintenance, refit and vessel life extension.

    These ships will conduct critical icebreaking duties for the Southern wintertime program and are to be deployed as needed in support of Arctic summertime programs.

    The first ship will be put to immediate use for icebreaking during the upcoming 2018-2019 season...
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-services-procurement/news/2018/06/canada-to-acquire-three-interim-icebreakers.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
What’s the issue with AIVIQ? It hasn’t been mentioned in any way since the PM announced his surprise.
 
Swampbuggy said:
What’s the issue with AIVIQ? It hasn’t been mentioned in any way since the PM announced his surprise.
There might not be anything wrong with the icebreaker.
The two sides also remain far apart on the heavy icebreaker, which Davie has been pushing hard despite strong reticence from senior coast guard officials who say it does not meet their needs.

The federal shipbuilding strategy does include plans for one heavy icebreaker, the Canadian Coast Guard ship John G. Diefenbaker, which could explain the coast guard's hesitation, said University of Calgary professor Rob Huebert.

"A lot of effort went into the design of the Diefenbaker," said Huebert, who has worked extensively with the coast guard. "If I was the coast guard, I would be terrified that if I got the Davie ship, I would not get the Diefenbaker."
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/feds-close-to-deal-with-quebec-shipyard-davie-for-coast-guard-icebreakers-1.3960465
 
Uzlu said:
There might not be anything wrong with the icebreaker.https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/feds-close-to-deal-with-quebec-shipyard-davie-for-coast-guard-icebreakers-1.3960465

I was under the impression that AIVIQ is more in line with TERRY FOX or LOUIS ST LAURENT and as such, doesn’t have the same capability as DIEFENBAKER. It should be complimentary to the heavy ice breaker, not a replacement for it. I guess I understand their fears, but it’s not like we couldn’t use more than one or two top tier icebreakers.
 
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