Consideration for the Victoria Cross - Afghanistan

[mariomike]

Reply #14 mentioned how rare they were.

Canada only awarded 16 for the Second World War, and none for Korea.

 

[daftandbarmy]

“Great job! Now here’s something to get yourself some new boot bands, Corporal!”

Dude, seriously?

Who blouses trousers over boots anymore?

 

[Spencer100]

Possibly a change of government will rectify.

I know the previous government wanted to award more. I think the problem is in the CAF and DND.

I could be wrong here but I feel the Medals are for more than just the individual receiving them. Its the unit, the branch and even the local home town. Most importantly the greater society at large. We need heroes that show a greater side of people. In this day and age we need something better than the millionaire sportballz "hero" People want heroes or just even people that do great things that they can look up too or point say see "he did a good thing there." Or wow what a life.

You can't tell me we don't have Tommy Princes or Jack Churchills (not a VC but his style!) anymore.

 

[dapaterson]

Possibly a change of government will rectify.

Return to the party in power when the previous decisions were made?

 

[Spencer100]

Return to the party in power when the previous decisions were made?

Yes they did want to award more but were "Yes, ministered"

 

[dapaterson]

So, who was the CDS who Yes Ministered?

Oh yeah.

 

[Maxman1]

I know the previous government wanted to award more. I think the problem is in the CAF and DND.

I could be wrong here but I feel the Medals are for more than just the individual receiving them. Its the unit, the branch and even the local home town. Most importantly the greater society at large. We need heroes that show a greater side of people. In this day and age we need something better than the millionaire sportballz "hero" People want heroes or just even people that do great things that they can look up too or point say see "he did a good thing there." Or wow what a life.

You can't tell me we don't have Tommy Princes or Jack Churchills (not a VC but his style!) anymore.

 

[Maxman1]

I guess it helps when the recommending authority for Meritorious Service Decorations is your boss.

Then again, apparently it's more important to recognize "steadfast leadership and tactical acumen" than genuine heroism or merit.

Colin Powell commented on this:
"the Legion of Merit I received? It might have meant more to me in a war where medals were not awarded so indiscriminately. I remember once, as division G-3, attending a battalion change-of-command ceremony at one firebase where the departing CO was awarded three Silver Stars, the nation's third highest award for valor, plus a clutch of other medals, after a tour lasting six months. He had performed ably, at times heroically. He was popular with his men. Yet, his troops had to stand there and listen to an overheated description of a fairly typical performance ... The departing battalion commander's 'package', a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit and Air Medals just for logging helicopter time, became almost standard issue."

 

[daftandbarmy]

Colin Powell commented on this:
"the Legion of Merit I received? It might have meant more to me in a war where medals were not awarded so indiscriminately. I remember once, as division G-3, attending a battalion change-of-command ceremony at one firebase where the departing CO was awarded three Silver Stars, the nation's third highest award for valor, plus a clutch of other medals, after a tour lasting six months. He had performed ably, at times heroically. He was popular with his men. Yet, his troops had to stand there and listen to an overheated description of a fairly typical performance ... The departing battalion commander's 'package', a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit and Air Medals just for logging helicopter time, became almost standard issue."

I had a discussion recently with a NCO I've known for many years about why a (particularly awful) Canadian LCol we both know was awarded a US Bronze Star in AFG.

He said that this guy, plus another thud we had sent over there, had put themselves in for the award, which they subsequently received.

They were dug in behind desks in K-Har for their whole tour, of course.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I had a discussion recently with a NCO I've known for many years about why a (particularly awful) Canadian LCol we both know was awarded a US Bronze Star in AFG.

He said that this guy, plus another thud we had sent over there, had put themselves in for the award, which they subsequently received.

They were dug in behind desks in K-Har for their whole tour, of course.

Pleas tell me that's not true.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Pleas tell me that's not true.

If true, am I surprised?

 

[OldSolduer]

Pleas tell me that's not true.

It wouldn’t be the first time

 

[brihard]

Pleas tell me that's not true.

People putting themselves in - or buddies reciprocally nominating - for gongs? Of course it happens.

 

[medicineman]

I had a discussion recently with a NCO I've known for many years about why a (particularly awful) Canadian LCol we both know was awarded a US Bronze Star in AFG.

He said that this guy, plus another thud we had sent over there, had put themselves in for the award, which they subsequently received.

They were dug in behind desks in K-Har for their whole tour, of course.

Some shrapnel from a rocket attack must have landed in some Hesco a few hundred metres away and they bravely saved their laptops by hugging them...while safely hidden behind another layer of Hesco...all while calling in counter-battery fire using said laptops.

Or words to that effect.

Pleas tell me that's not true.

I've heard of people on more than one occasion putting themselves in for OMM's; pretty sure some of the people that received their Orders of St John with me likely nominated themselves or each other, judging by the looking down of noses at myself and another MCpl I was a Superintendent with in St John Ambulance received, followed by the red faces/sheepish looks/mumbling as walking away when discussing what we'd done to get there...let's say the standards for a Community Service Medical Responder or Therapy Dog/Handler for promotion within The Order aren't equal to say, members of the local Board of Directors (who I had to report to monthly as a Super) or Medical Branch members within the CAF. Some of the folks giving me the stink eye were Senile Senior CWO's within the (then) CFMS.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Pleas tell me that's not true.

100% true, apparently.

It sounds like there are two kinds of Bronze Star: one for efficiency 'E' and one for valour 'V'.

They got the former.

 

[The Bread Guy]

So, who was the CDS who Yes Ministered?

Oh yeah.

Jeopardy answer: "Who's one of the people now asking for the award to be upgraded?"

 

[dimsum]

100% true, apparently.

It sounds like there are two kinds of Bronze Star: one for efficiency 'E' and one for valour 'V'.

They got the former.

Anecdotally, I've heard from US friends that the Bronze Star (without V clasp) is not rare at all. Almost, but not to the point, of a "deployment medal" for certain ranks and up. And it's not just officers, but higher-ranking NCMs too.

I've read some citations and it was definitely "[rank] XYZ did their job without screwing up".

Also, this:

U.S. Air Force criteria controversy​

In 2012, two U.S. airmen were allegedly subjected to cyber-bullying after receiving Bronze Star Medals for meritorious non-combat service. The two airmen, who had received the medals in March 2012, had been finance NCOICs in medical units deployed to the War in Afghanistan. The awards sparked a debate as to whether or not the Air Force was awarding too many medals to its members, and whether the Bronze Star should be awarded for non-combat service.[20] This prompted the Air Force to take down stories of the two posted to the internet, and to clarify its criteria for awarding medals. The Air Force contended that meritorious service awards of the Bronze Star outnumber valor awards, and that it views awards on a case-by-case basis to maintain the integrity of the award.[21]

This is not the first time that the USAF has been criticized for offering this award. The Department of Defense investigated the award of the Bronze Star Medal (BSM) by the USAF to some 246 individuals after operations in Kosovo in 1999. All but 60 were awarded to officers, and only 16 of those awarded were actually in the combat zone. At least five were awarded to officers who never left Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri. During this campaign, the Navy had awarded 69 BSMs, and the Army with 5,000 troops in neighboring Albania (considered part of the combat zone) awarded none.[22][23] In the end, there was a Pentagon review and decision by Congress in 2001 to stop the awarding of Bronze Stars to personnel outside the combat zone.[24]

 

[dapaterson]

I've read some citations and it was definitely "[rank] XYZ did their job without screwing up".

"Without screwing up in a way that was too obvious to overlook".

 

[OldSolduer]

I put forth that one of our long serving CWOs deserved an OMM - and I was prepared to nominate him but…..he was a Reservist, so a no go.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I put forth that one of our long serving CWOs deserved an OMM - and I was prepared to nominate him but…..he was a Reservist, so a no go.

At one point I was part of a Bde task force established to try and get an OMM for a reservist.

It was clear that by just being an active and competent Reservist, while running a business and being a valuable member of various community organizations several members were eligble but, of course, would never get an OMM because 'PRes'.

OTOH, a Reg F NCO could organize a kids' play area getting built (more or less as part of his day job) and boom, OMM.