Conservatives move to upstage Coderre.

[geo]

I'm guessing that he won't be offered his own personal security if he decides to leave KAF? Or would there be no choice but to protect it if outside the wire?

From my spot at LFQA HQ, Mr Coderre is supposed to be accomodated & looked after.
Have not seen anything today about what he is doing but, things are supposed to looked after.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Mr Coderre was there as an MP and as the Opposition's defence critic.  Regardless of what you personaly think of him, this politician could have / should have been accomodated.

While I agree that now he's there, he should be looked after. However, not on his own itinerary. If he's told he can't go outside the wire, he can't go. He can't have it both ways. As far as your comment about could have/ should have, that's just YOUR personal opinion. You and I don't make policy, let's not pretend we do.

 

[geo]

Never said or suggested that I did.
I very simply pointed out that:
1.  Mr Coderre is an elected official of the Canadian Government
2.  While he is not a member of the Cabinet or the Party in power, he is the defence critic for the "loyal opposition"
3.  Mr Coderre made an official request to go to KAF.  As defence critic he should have received some cooperation from the Gov't.
4.  Considering that Mr Bernier and Mrs Oda were both going over there, there is, from my perspective, little valid reason to refuse Mr Coderre's request.

WRT Mr Coderre's request to meet & greet Afghan politicians + Military & Cdn Troops,
he submitted an agenda to NDHQ - the agenda did get reviewed & he will get to do most of what he wanted to do.

 

[Trooper Hale]

I'm not sure which thread i should ask this in, i'm going to have a crack at this one though.
Whats the coverage of him been like? I dont get CTV or CBC here (different hemispheres and all that) so i've no idea of whats been happening. George, are you serious when you say he's been posing with everyone except for Canadians? That would be fairly humiliating although i cant see CTV making much a big deal over it.
Have the major news outlets pointed out the stupidity of his "I know the facts even if i learn new facts" finding mission? Or are they towing the anti-tories line and not worrying about little things like facts?
I'm really curious because this is quite a big story (in Canada, not here) and i love the way he's been snubbed by CF pers in Kandahar.

 

[GAP]

Just watching CTV new now, and they are pointing out that the trip was unauthorized, he is restricted to the base, he's just wandering around shaking as many hands as possible, mostly non-Canadians, and some troops interview, while holding back stronger opinions, are questioning why he was there.

Article Link


Video Link

 

[a_majoor]

Never said or suggested that I did.
I very simply pointed out that:
1.  Mr Coderre is an elected official of the Canadian Government
2.  While he is not a member of the Cabinet or the Party in power, he is the defence critic for the "loyal opposition"
3.  Mr Coderre made an official request to go to KAF.  As defence critic he should have received some cooperation from the Gov't.
4.  Considering that Mr Bernier and Mrs Oda were both going over there, there is, from my perspective, little valid reason to refuse Mr Coderre's request.

WRT Mr Coderre's request to meet & greet Afghan politicians + Military & Cdn Troops,
he submitted an agenda to NDHQ - the agenda did get reviewed & he will get to do most of what he wanted to do.

Mr Coderre is a Member of Parliament, not an official of the Government or a member of the Government. He did NOT make an official request to go to KAF, that could have been done at any time while Parliament was sitting through the office of the Defense Committee, but he chose not to do so. If he chooses to ignore both the procedures put in place during the Martin Government and the official channels of the Parliamentary committee, then he should accept the consequences.

While the ministers "could" have considered taking Mr Coderre, they are there on the Queen's business and should not have to be babysitting a grandstanding, attention seeking child while doing so.

As Mr Coderre has already openly stated that he will let nothing he sees lift the veil of ignorance, we can leave this thread and concentrate on spreading the Good News to the people of Canada.

 

[Kirkhill]

I am trying to find a reference and failing.

I recall seeing one of the reports on the telly, and I am pretty sure it was Carolyn Dunn of CBC, saying that Coderre had announced that he was there to talk to the troops and get their feedback on the mission.....but it wasn't going to change his mind or the party position on the deployment.

"Don't bother me with the facts. My mind is made up."

So what exactly WAS the point of this exercise?

 

[retiredgrunt45]

Mr Coderre is a Member of Parliament, not an official of the Government or a member of the Government. He did NOT make an official request to go to KAF, that could have been done at any time while Parliament was sitting through the office of the Defense Committee, but he chose not to do so. If he chooses to ignore both the procedures put in place during the Martin Government and the official channels of the Parliamentary committee, then he should accept the consequences.

While the ministers "could" have considered taking Mr Coderre, they are there on the Queen's business and should not have to be babysitting a grandstanding, attention seeking child while doing so.

As Mr Coderre has already openly stated that he will let nothing he sees lift the veil of ignorance, we can leave this thread and concentrate on spreading the Good News to the people of Canada.

A_Majoor, thank You for clearing that up. He has absolutely no business being over there on this whimsical visit.

 

[Rifleman62]

Again I ask, how many CF Bases or Units has he visited prior to this trip? If he is so interested as the Defence critic, why has he not shown interest in the CF before.

 

[geo]

a_majoor...

Let me start off by saying that I am not a fan of Mr Dion, Mr Coderre, Mr Ignatief and certainly not Mr Dosanjh.

defenition: government officials..... People elected or appointed to administer a government.
As such, Mr Coderre is a government official because he is an elected member of parliament.

definition: grandstanding....... perform ostentatiously in order to impress the audience and with an eye to the applause
As such, I could say that pert much all politicians visiting KAF are of that kind.  Mrs Oda could just have as easily issued a press release from Ottawa or from Kabul where the Afghan government operates from.

The house was supposed to resume in September.  Mr Harper moved the start of the fall session to mid October.  Just possibly, if the house had resumed as scheduled, Mr Coderre could have employed regular channels.  Considering he was sitting around doing nothing, why not request a visit to the one location where the CF has all of its eggs at present.

WRT your statement that he did not submit a request.... where do you get this information that you can categoricaly deny a request has been submitted.   I can tell you from my work place that he most certainly did submit a request and that same said request did get discussed here.

 

[a_majoor]

WRT your statement that he did not submit a request.... where do you get this information that you can categoricaly deny a request has been submitted.  I can tell you from my work place that he most certainly did submit a request and that same said request did get discussed here.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/66680/post-621475.html#msg621475

"Since (all requests) passed through the defence minister's office, I would see it as a partisan gesture from the defence minister if I'm denied access," he said.

A spokesman for MacKay said MP trips are usually organized through parliamentary committees and not through the minister's office.

In other words he deliberately bypassed the one channel that could have gotten him a trip and chose to make requests through an inappropriate channel. As a previous poster has pointed out, he has shown no interest in visiting bases/ships here in Canada, nor did he put in a request through the committee (even though he has had lots of time since the last election to do so), so his actual interest in the CF or discovering what is really happening in Afghanistan (or the CF in general) can be seen as nil.

 

[geo]

Regardless of channel, a request did get submitted. 
The military side of the house, for whom we both work for, did in fact discuss and put together something for Mr Coderre's visit.  I don't know and don't care if he chose to make use of the facilities that CEFCOM / LFQA proposed.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I do not doubt that M. Coderre did submit a request. I am reasonably certain that he did not submit it through the only channel approved by the government - the government in which he was a minister. Thus his request had no standing.

That it was discussed anywhere inside the Canadian Forces is proof positive that we have too many people, sitting behind too many desks with waaaay too little to do; one low ranked civil servant in the NDHQ Secretariat is all that is required to tell errant political hacks to go through the proper channels.

M. Coderre is a publicity whore of the worst sort. He exploited the too finely tuned political sensitivities in NDHQ for his own partisan advantage.

Minister are ministers; they do the Queen's business. All other MPs are, a Trudeau said, nobodies. When, if, M. Coderre is a minister again you can be sure that he will insist that backbench MPs, especially opposition MPs are treated with all the scorn possible - just as he should have been.

But: It was delightful to see him trying to solicit a handshake here and there from a bemused crowd - rather like an old, fat, ugly prostitute soliciting would-be johns down by the mission. M. Coderre is using the CF as a 'prop' - exactly what he excoriated the government for doing earlier this year; he's a shameless hypocrite, too.

 

[geo]

Good nuff Edward

 

[Jed]

I wish the +/- tool was back so I could add a + for you Edward. lol

 

[Hunteroffortune]

I think E.R. Campbell is right on.

My question is why didn't Coderre go earlier when the other opposition MP's went? Why now? For what purpose? He has already stated that no matter what he sees in Afghanistan, he will still support pulling out the troops in 2009, so I don't understand what he is trying to accomplish.

Will he go in Nov/Dec when Dion goes? Or is he setting himself up for the next Liberal leadership convention? That's what I suspect, and no, I don't have any proof, but seeing as the Liberals like electing Quebec Liberals as their leaders, could this be a political move? Nah!  ;D

 

[Boxkicker]

  Hello all fits off I do have to agree with most everyone that the House of Commons has become way to partisan, but that has only seemed to me to happen since Dion was crowned.

  Now this stunt by Coderre is just that a stunt and a joke, I do wish I was there orders or not I would tell him he was a clown if ever given the chance to speak. It is pretty obvious that most if not all of us think he is a joke.

  He states that hie is clearing the way for Dion to come, well if they have the ball to speak to the troops send them a clear message, let him know they are cowards if we so feel, and boo him.

 

 

[The Bread Guy]

Will he go in Nov/Dec when Dion goes? Or is he setting himself up for the next Liberal leadership convention? That's what I suspect, and no, I don't have any proof, but seeing as the Liberals like electing Quebec Liberals as their leaders, could this be a political move? Nah!  ;D

I'll go one further, with thanks to a far greater mind than mine for the idea - in addition to the short-term publicity, is Coderre positioning himself for the next leadership race?  Let's see, Dion hasn't been yet; it's nice for a leader to have some defence and/or foreign affairs experience; Dion, in some eyes, tottering in the leader's chair....

Anyone?  Anyone? 

 

[The Bread Guy]

I recall seeing one of the reports on the telly, and I am pretty sure it was Carolyn Dunn of CBC, saying that Coderre had announced that he was there to talk to the troops and get their feedback on the mission.....but it wasn't going to change his mind or the party position on the deployment ....  So what exactly WAS the point of this exercise?

Just spotted this, with almost EXACTLY the same sentiment you express in the headline, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act:

Why come if mind already made up?
Matthew Fisher, National Post, 9 Oct 07

Casting himself as the Lone Ranger, and with a thin new beard serving as a partial mask, Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre ventured deep into hostile territory yesterday for a preelection photo op.

No, Mr. Coderre did not travel to Taliban country. He spent the day as the not-particularly-welcome guest of Canadian troops who were almost universally angry at the Liberals' insistence that Canada must end its combat mission here when the current mandate expires in February, 2009.

Not 12 hours earlier, Stephen Harper's new foreign minister, Maxime Bernier, made the same 9,700-kilometre trek for the same pre-election photo op. But as befits a federal minister, Mr. Bernier had much better props.

Arriving and leaving, Mr. Bernier and his entourage had their own Canadian Forces aircraft. While on the ground they had access to SUV limousines, were flown to the Canadian front lines in a U.S. Chinook helicopter and were driven around there in a Bison armoured vehicle.

The Lone Ranger had no sidekick on what was an unauthorized trip. Because of "security concerns" after arriving on a UN flight he was not even allowed outside the wire at this sprawling, heavily guarded base, which is home to about 13,000 NATO soldiers and civilian workers.

Mr. Coderre instead had to hoof it around the airfield, but his main points of interest seemed to be Tim Hortons and the media tent. Among the few perks that Jean Chretien's former immigration minister was given was a computerized card in order to eat at one of the chow halls.

But what Mr. Coderre lacked most of all was a credible explanation of why he had bothered to come on at all on a "fact-finding mission" if, as he said again and again, his mind was already made up that Canada should not continue fighting alongside the Dutch, British, Americans, Australians and Romanians in southern Afghanistan.

Mr. Bernier had his own communications problem. His mantra was that security in the south had improved. This notion flew in the face of a recent UN study and much anecdotal evidence.

More than anything it sounded liked part of a Tory election strategy to declare a victory of sorts, creating the political space for a partial withdrawal or a substantial redefinition of the mission -- though it must also be said that the Conservatives have sent mixed signals for months on their intent for Canada's role in Afghanistan.

What Mr. Coderre -- and to an extent Mr. Bernier --failed to provide in Kandahar was a realistic appraisal of the current security situation, which is not particularly good, and how it would get much worse if Canada were to retreat. Also missing was an appreciation of how Canada's combat role in southern Afghanistan, which was championed by Paul Martin's Liberal government and then mightily embraced by Stephen Harper's Tories, has created an expectation among Afghans that Canada was actually serious about helping this country.

Those who would demand a change in the Canadian mission are ignoring a broad international consensus that little social or economic development can take place here unless there is security and that establishing such security requires years of commitment, not months.

It is also laughable that some Canadian politicians think that after only 19 months of combat their country has already earned a dividend from NATO for fighting the Taliban in Kandahar's Panjwaii and Zhari districts and that somehow Canada now has the right to condemn countries such as Germany that have refused to fight in Afghanistan.

Canadian troops have done very well here, but their courage and their successes do not make up for the fact that for decades Canada neglected its military so badly that it became the laughing stock of NATO. And several generations of Canadian politicians were quite happy to have it that way.

It is only because of what Canada has been doing in Kandahar that it has begun to re-establish its position as a respected member of NATO. Canada's top general, Rick Hillier, has commanded the International Security Assistance Force here. Maj.-Gen. Marc Lessard of the Van Doos is to assume command for all combat operations in southern Afghanistan from next February.

The antics of Messrs. Coderre and Bernier over the Thanksgiving weekend were a lively pre-election sideshow. The crux of the matter is whether Canada can, in good conscience, so quickly abandon the 90% of Afghans who believe in what they are doing, throwing into question whether the 71 Canadians who have died here did so for any good reason.

 

[Hunteroffortune]

Found on a CTV page: (Respecting all the copyright.... whatever I'm supposed to say)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071009/coderre_visit_071009/20071009?hub=Canada

Last comment on this story, it's priceless!

CF Mbr in Afghanistan
To all those who like to speak on my behalf, don't. I can express my opinion just fine and don't you dare attempt to pretend to know what I will say. How dare some of you say that MY fellow CF members that have fallen would think a certain way? One thing the military will not stand for is the tarnishing of their memory with your opinions. My fellow CF mbrs and I make sure that you have the right to express yourselves. I also have my right to express myself and don't need someone misinformed and with their own agenda to do it for me. As for Coderre, he spent all of his time on the base, between the press tents and the mess hall. Trust me, I know.