Conservatism needs work 2.0

[Remius]

Curious. What is your standard for proper math?  Are you referring to Ontario, other provinces or Canada as a whole? Have you looked at curricula for the provinces or taught in a classroom recently?


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I think Ontario uses discovery math or something like that...

 

[PuckChaser]

I think Ontario uses discovery math or something like that...

They do. Japan and Korea wipe the floor with us in mathematics. Let's take their program instead of inventing something else.

 

[pbi]

Parents  can’t be trusted with something like that. That’s the message I’m hearing from teachers unions, university and college unions, opposition parties, academics, activist groups etc.
Also, many educators are currently rewriting lesson plans to match learning outcomes that do not include the recently retired indigenous curricular, with a stunning requirement to focus on applied learning relative to the program of instruction which must deliver employable skills tuned to the current and forecasted labour market. Crazy, radical stuff.

I voted for the Tories, but this issue has always bothered me.  I continue to doubt that most (or any) of the people opposing the sex ed curriculum of the last Govt actually even read it. And of those who actually read it, how many approached it objectively, as opposed to starting with preconceptions? Could the curriculum have been adjusted? Probably, although IMHO there was no need. But adjustment would have been much better than reversion to 1998.

Clearly, the Liberals pooched the parental consultation, quite badly. One parent per school is obviously inadequate silliness.Broader consultation was a much better idea.  But that in itself doesn't invalidate the curriculum.

In my opinion the Tories are pandering to certain relatively narrow factions, just as I referred to in my earlier post. In some cases, these factions hold views I doubt represent anything like a majority of Ontarians, regardless of how people voted.

But what about leavng it to parents? That hasn't been done since I was in  public school in the 1960s, but what about it? Can all parents really  be trusted to teach their kids that young girls have the right to resist sexual demands from adult men? That a man doesn't have the right to rape his wife, or daughters? That gay or trans people are real ( not "unscientific theories" as per Granic-Allen et al), and have the same rights as everybody else? That we should call feet, eyes, arms, legs, penis and vagina by their proper names?

Maybe, or maybe not. How well do all parents do with geography, math, history or civics? How we think about sexual relations is how we think about people. And that, I think, is why this is so contentious. To me, the public education system has always, always passed  on and reinforced societal values: not just teaching the "Three R's"  but shaping citizens. At least, it always did when I was in it. Tokerance and protecting tge vulnerable are some of those values, or at least I thought they were, no matter if you are Tory, Liberal, or whatever.

Finally, I think we should be careful how far we stoop to get votes, lest we wake up one morning and find out that we regret the result of pandering to people who don't  hold mainstream values.

Maybe Kelly Leitch had a point with her "Canadian values" test.

 

[RocketRichard]

They do. Japan and Korea wipe the floor with us in mathematics. Let's take their program instead of inventing something else.

‘Of the 72 countries and economies participating in the assessment, only three —Singapore, Japan, and Estonia—outperformed Canada.’ Source: https://www.cmec.ca/251/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment_(PISA).html

PISA 2015 key findings for Canada http://www.oecd.org/canada/pisa-2015-canada.htm

Can we do better?  Absolutely. We are doing pretty damn good though.


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[PuckChaser]

That's Canada-wide average. How do we compare as a province? Is Ontario dragging that average down?

 

[RocketRichard]

That's Canada-wide average. How do we compare as a province? Is Ontario dragging that average down?

Ontario: not too bad at all
PISA QUICK FACTS

The average Ontario science score was 524 in 2015, compared to 527 in 2012.
Students from six jurisdictions (Singapore, Alberta, British Columbia, Japan, Quebec and Estonia) had science results that were statistically higher than Ontario’s.1
Ontario students matched the Canadian average for both the test overall and all the science subskills evaluated.
As in all Canadian provinces, no gender differences in overall science were observed in Ontario.


The average Ontario reading score was 527 in 2015, compared to 528 in 2012.
In 2015, no jurisdictions had results statistically higher than Ontario’s.
Ontario students’ reading achievement matched the Canadian average.


After a decline in math between 2003 and 2012, the performance of Ontario students remained stable over the 2012 to 2015 period.
In 2015, students from 11 jurisdictions (Singapore, Hong Kong‒China, Quebec, Macao‒China, Chinese Taipei, Japan, BSJG‒China, Korea, Switzerland, Estonia and Canada) performed better than Ontario’s in math.
Among Canadian provinces, only Quebec had results statistically higher than Ontario’s. Ontario students performed just below the Canadian students’ average, and they are still among the top 25% of participating jurisdictions.




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[Infanteer]

But what about leavng it to parents? That hasn't been done since I was in  public school in the 1960s, but what about it? Can all parents really be trusted

Maybe my point didn't come across well.  What I was getting at was that it is a parents job to discuss with a child what the child is being taught at school.  Parents should be more focused on talking with their kids as opposed to running around with signs and protesting the curriculum.

As others pointed out, if there is something to really be concerned about in the curriculum, this is it.

 

[Cloud Cover]

How about we are not allowed to give a grade of zero for crap work. How about we can’t remove students who grab and twist the crotch of other students they feel are inferior. How about the fact parents sue teachers and school boards because little Susie isn’t happy with the fact her “safe space” is not a place for her to use as a shield while she throws her venom at others. Everything has gone too far, and far too many parents are interested in litigation and defamation rather than take responsibility for the few precious lives our country brings into this world.
PBI is correct in an oblique way, things went off the rails in the 60’s. And he’s also right that schools have an obligation to reinforce gender and sexual identification, but I think where we differ ( and I admit I am on the inside teaching in two levels of education)  is the boomerang effect on kids (less than 16 YOA) who are being tracked by teachers or faculty for extra “reinforcement”, or who are too often ridiculed for not wanting to be “outed” or willing to join a GSA, or who often may not fall into any category other than straight, but most common of all those who are simply too damned young to know and feel more confused about that one issue which derails them when we really need them most to focus on succeeding in basic educational skills.
Further, as of yesterday we ditched discovery math. At the post secondary level, we see that high school experiment failed and we have had to fill our engineering and science programs with international students.  I have more post sec students who can tell me that Sir John was an drunken land grabbing murderer of FN, than those who can tell me he was an astute politician who understood the importance of nationhood, commerce and yes, social development. After all, he was a single parent of a child with a severe disability.

 

[Infanteer]

Sounds like Canadian education needs work 2.0!  Who approves this crap?  Provincial politicians or school boards?

 

[Brad Sallows]

I don't know if it's universal (all provinces), but provincial ministries (bureaucrats, not politicians, although with some unavoidable political contamination) set most curricula.  School boards have limited authority.

 

[Altair]

Same here. This is one of those issues that I'll be watching. The most recent statement by the new Minister of Education indicates that they will scrap it and roll back to the 1998 curriculum while they study the issue and consult with a larger group of parents.

I don't see how they can avoid the rollback since that was a big campaign promise. What I want to see is the degree of consultation and how much they'll be influenced by the conservative and religious groups who opposed it rather than by the majority of the public who have no problem with the new curriculum. That's a long term issue to watch for.

:cheers:

meanwhile, in quebec.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-ontario-rolls-back-sex-ed-curriculum-quebec-to-teach-kindergarteners-how-babies-are-made-1.4744764

But just as Ontario is set to make the change in the fall, the province of Quebec will soon start teaching sex-ed again after it was dropped from the school curriculum a decade ago. Coming in September, it will be a mandatory subject in every grade, beginning in kindergarten.

"We're actually implementing a much broader sexual education program across the board from elementary to high school, which takes into account today's reality. And certainly, with a broader lens when it comes to sexual education," said Joly.

Joly said the new changes come as a result of years of work, and after the success of three years of pilot projects in more than 200 schools across Quebec.

He said kindergarteners will be introduced to things like their body parts and how babies are made. Students will learn about same sex relationships and homophobia as early as Grades 3 and 4. More in-depth issues such as managing conflicts within relationships will be learned in older grades.

Go figure.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The furor arises over muddying the line between sex education and sexuality education, and in particular when (at what age) (and for some, if) the latter is appropriate.

 

[pbi]

Maybe my point didn't come across well.  What I was getting at was that it is a parents job to discuss with a child what the child is being taught at school.  Parents should be more focused on talking with their kids as opposed to running around with signs and protesting the curriculum.

As others pointed out, if there is something to really be concerned about in the curriculum, this is it.

OK. I'm with you now. :nod:

 

[pbi]

How about we are not allowed to give a grade of zero for crap work. How about we can’t remove students who grab and twist the crotch of other students they feel are inferior. How about the fact parents sue teachers and school boards because little Susie isn’t happy with the fact her “safe space” is not a place for her to use as a shield while she throws her venom at others. Everything has gone too far, and far too many parents are interested in litigation and defamation rather than take responsibility for the few precious lives our country brings into this world...

I agree fully with you. I have two teachers in my family, and I would not want their jobs. On the one hand, whiny, entitled, bitchy and unpredictably violent kids acting out in class because of the stupid, undisciplined, self-indulgent way they were raised. On the other hand, whiny, entitled, "hyper-parents" demanding that their kids be MBA-ready by age 12, and endlessly threatening the schools with this, that and everything else if little Johnny, or Omar, or Wing or Juan doesn't get straight A's, or the teacher (God forbid!!) tries to discipline the little savage. Add to that various parents trying to impose their particular cultural or religious beliefs in the classroom. SIDEBAR: One of my relatives told me about parents of a certain persuasion who advised that their little dear was not to have Pepsi at snack time because "that is made by Jews".
Add to all that an endless flow of "better ideas" from the curriculum folks, little or no prep time, and school administrations too gun shy to back up teachers, and it's a pretty difficult situation. Too bad, because education is what makes us a civilized society. If the system that delivers it is in trouble, so are we.

PBI is correct in an oblique way, things went off the rails in the 60’s. And he’s also right that schools have an obligation to reinforce gender and sexual identification, but I think where we differ ( and I admit I am on the inside teaching in two levels of education)  is the boomerang effect on kids (less than 16 YOA) who are being tracked by teachers or faculty for extra reinforcement, or who are too often ridiculed for not wanting to be “outed” or willing to join a GSA, or who often may not fall into any category other than straight, but most common of all those who are simply too damned young to know and feel more confused about that one issue which derails them when we really need them most to focus on succeeding in basic educational skills.

I agree, mostly. I experienced the radical leftward swing in education when I entered high school in 1970. Some terrible ideas were put into practice, emanating from places like the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education (OISE) which may actually have been a branch of the KGB. Even at my young age I could sense the leftward tilt of things. Now, I'm not saying we should have gone back to one room school houses and nothing but "The Three Rs", but there is a middle ground of common sense and I think that was overshot by quite a bit.

A far as LGBTQ kids go, and how they should be treated, and what kids should learn about sexual orientation, I speak from the perspective of having two gay kids (now adults), and having military friends with gay or trans kids. The most important thing (IMHO) is not to single anybody out (that can backfire, as a form of target identification), but to teach that all people need to be judged on what they do and how they treat others, and what they are capable of doing, rather than on their sexual orientation. This will never be accepted by everybody, and there will always be some parents who will be mortified by the idea that an LGBTQ person could actually be a good, productive human being. Fine. This is no different from parents who don't like the way history is taught, or don't want evolution taught in science, or don't want kids doing music or dancing, or boys and girls playing in a mixed playground., or, or, or.....

Further, as of yesterday we ditched discovery math. At the post secondary level, we see that high school experiment failed and we have had to fill our engineering and science programs with international students.  I have more post sec students who can tell me that Sir John was an drunken land grabbing murderer of FN, than those who can tell me he was an astute politician who understood the importance of nationhood, commerce and yes, social development. After all, he was a single parent of a child with a severe disability.

Good riddance to discovery math. But it was probably only typical, anyway. Having taught a few syndicates of our best and brightest captains, I've seen the decay of basic skills such as the ability to express oneself clearly on paper or orally, or the ability to pay attention to detail. Military history (or history in general...) also seemed to me to be a dying art. If that was the case with  officers, I can only imagine how decayed things must be on civvy street. The whole business about Sir John A is really PC and victim culture gone overboard. I live in Kingston and I was very angry to see a) his statue in City Park defaced; and b) the Sir John A pub change its name. Totally unnecessary and stupid.

If (as is quite possible, and maybe even true) Sir John A or any other great figure committed sins, then let's not hide the facts. History must be truthful if it is to be valuable, warts and all. Good people do bad things. No issue there. Document the facts.

But let's not (once again...) go overboard and trash a huge part of our own history by pulling down statues or otherwise acting ashamed of people who built the foundations of this country. Some people might want to pause for a second and imagine just what the fate of this chunk of North America might have been, if not for Sir John. Instead of the shameful residential schools, we might have had a real campaign of genocide, carried out by the US Army.

 

[ballz]

I think "conservatives" are split right now between social conservatives and liberty conservatives... liberty conservatives are a growing demographic and will hopefully soon be the undisputed leader of conservatives. However, they still can't lose social conservatism or the "right" will be split.

There needs to be almost a formal acknowledgement from both sides. The social conservatives need to agree that despite their personal morals / beliefs about social issues like marriage, drug use, sex, parenting, et al.... they may be right but the government shouldn't be used to force that onto everyone else.

The liberty conservatives need to do a better job of acknowledging that while the government shouldn't be used to force values on everyone else... the old traditional values espoused by social conservatives like not having recreational sex, recreational drug use, respect for your parents, eating dinner as a family, community/church involvement, the importance of marriage, etc, help keep society functioning in the absence of government intervention and should be respected/promoted.

In my opinion, if we have that, the swamp of vitriol will dry up / can simply be ignored since you'd have enough united small "c" conservatives under one tent.

 

[pbi]

In my opinion, if we have that, the swamp of vitriol will dry up / can simply be ignored since you'd have enough united small "c" conservatives under one tent.

I am with you on this. I also agree (pretty much) with the list of values you identified as being important, but isn't imposing these also a form of "government intervention"?

The trick IMHO will be for moderate conservative leaders to avoid the strong temptation to whip up the social conservatives (especially the more extreme ones, both native-born and recent immigrant). It's quite easy to do, and produces very loud and satisfying media, but in the long run it can just promote a different form of government oppression of peoples' private lives.

I think that Harper was able to do this  balancing to a certain extent, once he got rolling, although the Tories got a bit desperate toward the end in the last federal election.

 

[suffolkowner]

I certainly wish there was more libertarian in the conservatism on offer today, I just don't see it. The political landscape is just dominated by bribing voters with a continual onslaught of subsidies,tax breaks and blind ideology no matter what the real cost while bitching about taxes the very next morning at Tim's.

With regards to education, I'm not sure when this golden age ever existed. Not for my parent's educated in one room school houses. It wasn't even that long ago that teachers themselves were barely educated past grade 13. Math itself is not a strong point for most people in my opinion, were my parents better at repetitive addition than my children, for sure. Better at mathematics as a whole, not by a long shot. I don't know really anything about Discovery math but I'm guessing it was at least partially driven in an attempt to get more students to complete their schooling with greater skills than previous students had acquired. Until recently I think the number of students completing secondary school had been around 67%(?), I think a lot of effort in recent years has been to push students through and graduate them from secondary school at what ever the cost in overall quality of education level. Cursive writing, like most I was taught it, I'm trying to remember the last time I used it or even saw it, decades at least now.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I use cursive writing everyday. I think it's horrible when I see senior students etc badly printing their name in the signature block. It looks like it was signed by my 5 year old grandson. Important documents like copies of the charter or constitution in their original cursive writing will be unintelligible to those attempting to read them in that form.

My grandson will know cursive. Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but I think it's still important.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I agree with a move to a more libertarian stance. There is too much government intrusion into our lives. Peace, order and good government is gone, but not so far that we can't get it back with more personal involvement and not backing off on our demands to those in power that used to take care and work for us. Governments need to go back to their role of employee, not employer
They work for us. We should be telling them what and what not to do. Not the other way around. Mechanics need to be put in place so that when they don't follow direction, they can be bounced from power immediately. Not four years later, when we're on the other side of the precipice and the damage is irreparable.

 

[Remius]

I use cursive writing everyday. I think it's horrible when I see senior students etc badly printing their name in the signature block. It looks like it was signed by my 5 year old grandson. Important documents like copies of the charter or constitution in their original cursive writing will be unintelligible to those attempting to read them in that form.

My grandson will know cursive. Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but I think it's still important.

Some states in the US are going back to it.

https://education.cu-portland.edu/blog/classroom-resources/5-reasons-cursive-writing-should-be-taught-in-school/

My son's private school teaches it from day one.  Including kindergarten where they are taught how to properly hold a writing tool, be it a pen or pencil or crayon.

It is still important.  For various reasons.

I compare it to a compass/GPS issue.  Who needs a compass when you have GPS right?  We all know the answer to that.