Combat Engineers

[armybuck041]

Do you have a choice in what parts of the trade you want to focus on? For example, can you specify that you want to play more of an "assault pioneer" role as opposed to a "construction" role?

Combat Engineers (MOC 043) are totally different than Construction Engineers (MOC's 641 - 649). In other words, your either choose to be a Combat Engineer or a Construction Engineer Tradesman.

In laymans terms:

Combat Engineer = Mines/IEDs/EOD, Gap Crossing/Bridging, Survivability, Mobility, Heavy Equipment and all other Engineering tasks found at the tactical level of Operations
Construction Engineer = Carpentry, Plumbing/Heating, Electrical Distribution, Refridgeration/Mechanical, Electrical Generation Systems, Water/Fuel/Enviromental
 

Do all Sappers have to do mine clearance and IED disposal? Is there extra pay when performing dangerous EOD?

It is a Combat Engineers task to deal with Mines and Basic UXO/Munitions Disposal.

Combat Engineers may choose/or be chosen to attend Specialist Training to deal with IED's and Advanced EOD tasks. There is a system of extra allowances for IED and Advanced EOD tasks although I do not know all of the specifics other than it is paid per Call and not a monthly allowance. Most who choose this field are not in it for the money.

In your opinion, why are there rention issues and shortages in this trade?

There are many posts discussing this issue all over this board.

I'm trying to get an idea as to what my life will be like after the initial training. I know is hard to say where I will be posted...but how soon will I be eligible to be deployed in AFG ?

I have seen new Sappers deploy well within a year after arriving at the Unit. It all depends on where the Unit fits into the rotation schedule and your suitability and personal situation.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Well, I've done a search through the whole of the Engr forum, and couldn't find exactly what I was looking for.


I've spent 5 years in the Royal Engineers and am currently trying to join the CME as a combat engineer. I spent some time with some of the cdn engrs from the PRT in Kandahar last fall, and was impressed with the career profiles of most of them, nevermind their professionalism.

But basically what I'm looking for is what day-to-day life is actually like in 1 or 2 CER. Day to day tempo of work, the esprit de corps amongst the squadrons, even just the little silly differences like if each squadron has it's own bar like we do or just one generic JR's mess for the whole regiment.

How often do MACC tasks come up? I don't know if you call them the same but little constructions tasks like re-roofing a school somewhere, the kind of jobs you take on to keep the lads from oiling shovels/doing Tp store 100%'s.

How often is PT done? (Not that I'm a lazy waster, very much into doing PT) What does it normally consist of? Runs and tabs obviously, but do you also do log races, obstacle courses, equipment races, MGB races etc as part of your normal PT?

What sort of interval am I looking at between op tours/career courses/regt'l duties (if you have them). From what I've read it's pretty heavy, but at the unit I'm currently at I'm averaging 2 weeks away for every week in garrison. Sometimes with only 2 days notice.

Finally, is there any such thing as 'Career Streaming'? Meaning, if Spr Bloggs gets the chance to do his EOD course, will he then follow an EOD career path? Or if he fancies a change later on can he go Armoured. Reason I ask is it is a big retention issue right now in the Royal Engineers, most trades can vary postings between light role, air support, armoured or mech, whereas certain trades, mainly the more technical ones, may only spend 2-3 years in a field troop before being posted to MWF (basically they design everything) for the rest of their career. And whilst most of these 'tech trades' are happy to do so, quite a few joined to be combat engineers first, and rather then let them do so, the army is willing to let them go, without even considering a change in career path.

I'm asking these questions not only for myself, but a few of the other guys I know in the RE are looking to move abroad, and possible join the Canadian Forces. I'm aware of the citizenship requirement.

Thanks in advance for any replies, and apologies again if this has been covered in detail somewheres else.

 

[devilins]

Just so you know:

Basically what happens at the Regiment is several things.  1.  Your on Course  2.  You are Preparing for an Operation  3.  On Operation  4.  Garrison Duties  5.  On Leave.

1.  On course:  Our career courses run from 6 months which is our Section Member Course (There is talk of making it 11 months but that consolidates a Solider Qualification)  Our Sect 2 IC Course and PLQ (the portion which is not done in house) are both Approx 6 weeks and then your Section Commander course and Recce Sgt/ Ops Course which are 3 Months each.  Add that together and your a fully trained Sgt in the Combat Engineers.  Considering it takes the average guy 12 years to reach that mark that's allot of time on course and that is just the career courses.  This doesn't include the many driver courses, speciality courses IE EOD, Water Supply, BBE Op to name a few.  Add this together coupled with being an instructor in them once your PLQ qualified and it adds up quickly. 
2.  This is where we get in most of our training and it is getting better and better every year.  This winter I help with the troops conducting a live fire kill house through a prefab Afghan Village made of plywood.  Live ammo, Dynamic entry, Batsim and more!  This is 6 months of super busy, crazy late nights, long weeks and weekends getting ramped up for an operation.  If your not going on an operation chances are you are the people acting as the DS, causalities, setting up the ranges and just the general lackeys for the group going over.

3.  Operations depend on your role.  I was EOD so I dealt with IED calls and Disposal operations.  The field Troops did route designations were ERS (Engineer Response Section) and did mine clearances, and generic engineer tasks.  Hy did what Hvy does best and that is push dirt and move stuff.  We moved to Kandahar and we all became construction Engineers building WeatherHaven Shelters, offices, an Ammo Storage Compound, cough Carpentry, Walkways BATs (Big Ass Tents) and just general labour.  This sounds like allot but believe me this is the rest period.  The PRT had their own different tasks which you seen when you were attached to them.

4.  Garrison Duties as I mentioned is generally the support of courses, Operations, maintenance of Equipment and stores checks.  Depending on your position IE in a field section this could mean slow days.  If you are an Ops NCO or an SQ your days are filled with putting out fires and ensuring that everything is going to plan.  This is also mainly an Officers Job plus writing up all the orders, Training Instructions etc.

5.  LEAVE!!  This is the time that we get to spend with our families.  I have a 2 year old boy who I have seen for approx 6 months of his life.  I have been on one speciality course for 3 months, 3 month career course, 2 months of work up tour training, and a 6 month tour.  Add some field time and other things that take  you away from home and you generally have why engineers are said to be burnt out and there is such a low retention rate.

On a happier note  if you are ambitious then you can make it to Sgt in 10 years with out much difficulty.  It helps to be in good shape and to be keen as we like those traits in our engineers.  If you are old and your already feeling the pain from a long life I would suggest that you not go engineer as we have a tendency to break our troops.  Hope this answered your questions.

Chimo!!

 

[armyrules]

Thanks for the informational posts Towards_the_Gap and devilins very interesting for an aspiring combat engineer like myself. Can't wait to get BMQ started.

 

[devilins]

This Rotation of five usually happens every 18-months to 2 years for an individual.  The vast majority of my peers now have 4-7 operations under their belts in the past 10 years from the Balkins to Afghanistan.  We are finally getting a reprieve once this next roto gets back as in the past 3 years there has been a Roto to Bosnia and four Rotos to Afghanistan lasting 6-7 months each and a few DART deployments.  This is the entire Regiment though and generally your in a Field Sqn or attached to it in the Support Troop.  Guys qualified Hvy equipment are usually in very high demand as well as EOD/IEDD.  In some cases members from other regiments have to fill in the deficiencies.  Like I said the engineers are hurting and thus why we have a low retention rate.

 

[McG]

But basically what I'm looking for is what day-to-day life is actually like in 1 or 2 CER. Day to day tempo of work, the esprit de corps amongst the squadrons, even just the little silly differences like if each squadron has it's own bar like we do or just one generic JR's mess for the whole regiment.

Well, whole bases shares common messes (segregated by rank, but shared across units).  The regiments all use the common messes on their respective bases.  However, while in the field most Squadron Sergeant Major maintain a canteen with pop, chips, cigarettes, and other assorted “Quickie-Mart” type products for sale.

How often do MACC tasks come up? I don't know if you call them the same but little constructions tasks like re-roofing a school somewhere, the kind of jobs you take on to keep the lads from oiling shovels/doing Tp store 100%'s.

Unlike Engineers in the UK, Engineers in Canada are either Sappers or Tradesmen (not both).  If you are one of the construction engineer trades, you could expect yourself to be regularly employed in construction projects.

How often is PT done? (Not that I'm a lazy waster, very much into doing PT) What does it normally consist of? Runs and tabs obviously, but do you also do log races, obstacle courses, equipment races, MGB races etc as part of your normal PT?

PT is daily.  At 1 CER, PT was about an hour long on at the start of every Monday, Tuesday and Thursday (there was additional time after to shower & change) and the activities typically depended on the preferences of the squadron and troop leadership.  On Wednesday the full afternoon was dedicated to sports between troops or squadrons (soccer, football, floor hockey, etc).  On Friday the first two hours were given to “combat PT” (this could be anything from rucksack marches to the squadrons racing to see which could pull an AVLB down the length of the runway faster).

is there any such thing as 'Career Streaming'? Meaning, if Spr Bloggs gets the chance to do his EOD course, will he then follow an EOD career path? Or if he fancies a change later on can he go Armoured.

Yes and No.  There used to be a separate occupation for Equipment Operators, but that has since been merged with the Field Engineer occupation to produce Combat Engineers.  In theory, any Combat Engineer could to the EOD, Diver, Hy Eqpt Op or Armd thing.  However, the Armd option only exists at 1 CER (and even there there is a desire to let it pass away quietly) and the availability of spots for the other specialties is limited by course openings.  Because there are so few EOD operators & Hy Eqpt operators, once you get in you will keep coming back.  At the same time, every Cbt Engr must eventually return to the Fd Tps for career progression.

 

[geo]

As things stand right now, Navy pretty much controls EOD school
From what I was told, the Army "green engineers" are working to get a grip on it's own EODs....

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Many thanks for all the info. Doesn't sound like it'll be much of a culture shock for me to come across then. I actually had the chance a couple of weeks ago to visit a buddy at 1 CER and he showed me around the place, I must admit, I was rather impressed! Any of you who've been in a UK engr camp will understand, it basically seemed the exact same as our lines just a whole lot newer and shinier bits of kit.

 

[devilins]

New and Shiny Kit??  Damn ...since our stuff is WWII vintage I'm guessing your kit is circa Crimean...possibly WWI??  ;D

 

[geo]

LOL!
possibly we should stop feeling sorry for ourselves.
we don't necessarily have lots of kit but, most of the time, it fits the bill and does the job.

 

[silentone]

Is it true that Combat engineers can take infantry courses? I do understand that their secondary role is to act as infantry, thus my question. Thanks to any replies.

 

[geo]

Huh??
There are parts of the Sapper's qualifying courses that cover some of the infantry skillset - but we do not have any plans of taking over the infantry's roles and responsibilities.... we have enough work on our plate to keep us busy for a long time.

When you get to the Junior leader course, Combat arms trades all take "block 6" which is pert much all infantry.........

 

[Kat Stevens]

We used to get the odd opening on the recce patrolman course, but no longer. There are a few sapper patrol pathfinders out there, I believe, and the machine gunner course, obviously.  Those are about the only "hard infantry" quals we can get, I think.

 

[geo]

pert much that Kat....

 

[Towards_the_gap]

New and Shiny Kit??  Damn ...since our stuff is WWII vintage I'm guessing your kit is circa Crimean...possibly WWI??   ;D

sorry for the delay in replying.....yes! ever seen the square mess tins from WWII/korea (possibly earlier) era? and the little folding hexamine 'tommy cookers;?


Guess what we get issued with.......


Although we did just get issued with a complete new set of makita 'combat power tools'. In usual defence procurement fashion, they're plastic and crap and keep breaking.

 

[geo]

Makita tools.... am certain that they got a good price for em

WRT the old mess tins.... gawd - I do remember them & know some who got sick from them... they served better as a shovel than as something to carry food in.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I remember as a cadet way back when being told not to drink either the water from said mess tins, or the water from boiled IMP packs, can't remember which, as the metal content in either can addle your brain a wee bit.

Found it a bit weird then to be drinking both when introduced to 24hr rat packs in basic training!!


Explains the voices tho......

But back on thread, another question regarding the CME..

How does promotion work in the CER's? In the RE, you're promoted to Lance Corporal in unit, after completing a JNCO Cadre, but beyond that, promotion is decided upon by a board of officers at the Manning and Career Management div in Glasgow. Is it the same type of thing with the CER's? or are all promotions 'in house' as it were, based upon merit, qualifications, and space to promote you into? Basically who do you compete with for promotion, others of the same rank in your unit? Or corps-wide?

 

[geo]

we have to deal with the added language (french / english) issue.
5 CER can work just as well in English but is, for all intents and purposes - French working within a french based brigade group in a french based province.....

We don't have lance jacks as a rank here - Cpl is a capability based "leg up" that is based on qualifications.... Master Cpl, Sgt, WO (Staff Sgt), WO2 & WO1s are "merit listed"....  merit, qualifications, and space to promote are all factored in.

Similarities with REs exist................

Given that we are deploying Field Squadrons with each TF, we're going to need to grow the branch over the next umpteen years (optimism abounds)

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Geo. Many thanks for the information, I can't say it's had a great effect on whether I'd join or not, as I want to move home anyways and am mostly through the recruiting process as it is,  but it's been very helpful in my understanding of what I'll be 'transferring' to. Am I correct in saying I won't have much culture shock moving back across the pond to the CME's?

I've asked for 1 CER, what do you reckon my chances of getting it are? I know it's like 'how long is a piece of string', but if I can get some idea it would help as I'm orginally from Ontario, and as such Petawawa would not be such a hardship posting, however would really like Edmonton instead.


Thanks again for everyones help and information.

 

[392]

I've asked for 1 CER, what do you reckon my chances of getting it are? I know it's like 'how long is a piece of string', but if I can get some idea it would help as I'm orginally from Ontario, and as such Petawawa would not be such a hardship posting, however would really like Edmonton instead.

All 4 units are hurting in the manning dept right now, so it would be hard to predict which one you'll end up at. I'd hazard to guess you're safe from going to Valcatraz (unless you have a second language profile), but you may even end up in Gagetown at 4ESR. It all depends on where the career manager needs the most pers right now.

As far as culture shock, I'm not sure what your day-to-day pace was/is in the RE, but in garrison in a CER, sometimes life is VERY slow with not much to do depending on time of year, taskings, courses, etc., but once we're in the field or on Op, we're busier than hell to the point you wish you were in the breezeway shooting the sh!t with the troops with nothing to do. ;D