Collège Militaire Royal de Saint-Jean (CMR)

[Brasidas]

To quote someone wise than I, "If I’m going to command at a certain level, on behalf of a lawfully elected government in another place in the world, it is not unreasonable to expect that I can elevate my intellectual game?”

Your mileage may vary, but I have personally seen and continue to see tangible benefits from my university experience. My experience and my education has made me a better person, a better adult, and as a result a better Officer. Could I have gotten to this point through experience alone? Perhaps, with time.

As for spending money on RMC/CMR vs. simply sending people to civilian University? I'll echo what's already been said. They act as recruiting tools to attract the nation's best who see them as an elite institutions, and they are symbols of national pride, like West Point and Sandhurst.

Also, even though it only educates Officer Cadets, it is still a federal research institution which produces a large amount of worthwhile material for academia.

Sandhurst only trains officers to be officers; its not a university.

Why couldn't we similarly teach officers to be officers, rather than be in the game of running a university?

If you want a great officer training centre, do that.

 

[Loachman]

However, there IS a shortage of officers joining now.

Then offer Officer applicants a $5000.00 bonus contingent upon passing their occupation qualification courses and skip the whole degree thing for those who will not be engineers, doctors, dentists, lawyers, etcetera.

That would save a ton of money, make people useful three or four years earlier, and result in Officers of the same calibre.

The only downside is for those whose empires would contract.

 

[Old Sweat]

Back pre-unification when the army had two entry streams, one producing officers with degrees and one that did not, it grudgingly admitted that once officers reached the rank of captain, there was no difference in performance. Before that, the degree scheme ones had the edge in "intellectual pursuits" while the non-degreed ones were better at the "army stuff" in garrison and in the field.

Whether that is valid today is moot.

 

[dapaterson]

Indeed, the manpower study for officers done pre-unification saw two streams: Undegreed for a wide pool of junior officers, who would serve nine years then be given a gratuity; and degreed, who would not get the payout but would form the nucleus of a much smaller senior officer corps.

We now have an inflated corps of senior officers, without the requisite military command positions for them to gain experience.  We end up with either grossly abridged times in command, or pseudo-command positions (like the plethora of individuals who are designated as sorta-kinda-almost COs).  Neither serves the institution well in developing leadership.

There is an admirable ambition in the CAF to punch above weight; unfortunately, in a structure of 68K Regular Force, there are finite opportunities for leadership.  That drives limits to how many effective senior leaders can be produced and sustained.

 

[Old Sweat]

Indeed, the manpower study for officers done pre-unification saw two streams: Undegreed for a wide pool of junior officers, who would serve nine years then be given a gratuity; and degreed, who would not get the payout but would form the nucleus of a much smaller senior officer corps.

The study fell victim to unification. However it was considered widely unattainable as too many ROTP graduates served only their compulsory three years of commissioned service before returning to civilian life. I was a member of the great unwashed, having received a short service commission in 1961 after having served as a NCM. I applied for and was granted a permanent commission after passing my promotion exams in 1964 and went to staff college in 1970 at the age of 30.

For whatever it was worth, many commanding officers preferred undegreed junior officers as they had a better grounding in their duties and were well motivated towards a military career. Most sought and were granted permanent commissions which meant service to CRA, in those days: Captain and below 47; Major 49; Lieutenant Colonel 51; Colonel 53; and Brigadier and up 55. 

 

[Brasidas]

I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way. I agree that RMC does not necessarily produce officers that are a significant cut above their civvie-U counterparts, but they are a recruitment tool. Like I said earlier, the forces are lacking in recruitment recently, and the colleges are one way to give an incentive to sign up. I don't think that having a Quebec counterpart is that unrealistic, seeing as just over 20 years ago half of Quebec was ready to split from Canada.

Then give them $5000 to enroll. To be fair, make it for all incoming officers, repayable if they fail to complete their program.

$4 million annually, divided by $5000, is 800 officers. Multiply that by 4 (every officer gets the bonus once, and generally gets a degree done in four years), and we have 3200 officers receiving a bonus for the increased cost of bring CMR St Jean up to the new level.

How much better do you think CMR is as a recruitment tool than those Quebecers being able to stay home at Laval or UQAM with $5000 in their pocket?

 

[MSmith]

Then give them $5000 to enroll. To be fair, make it for all incoming officers, repayable if they fail to complete their program.

$4 million annually, divided by $5000, is 800 officers. Multiply that by 4 (every officer gets the bonus once, and generally gets a degree done in four years), and we have 3200 officers receiving a bonus for the increased cost of bring CMR St Jean up to the new level.

How much better do you think CMR is as a recruitment tool than those Quebecers being able to stay home at Laval or UQAM with $5000 in their pocket?

Well to be honest, I don't really know how much better it is. It very well could be the golden ticket, but the reality is that neither Military college will be closed in favor of that any time soon. Like I said earlier I'm not arguing for the RMC system, simply trying to share my understanding of why it exists/decision to reopen CMR as a university was made.

 

[roborob]

Then give them $5000 to enroll. To be fair, make it for all incoming officers, repayable if they fail to complete their program.

$4 million annually, divided by $5000, is 800 officers. Multiply that by 4 (every officer gets the bonus once, and generally gets a degree done in four years), and we have 3200 officers receiving a bonus for the increased cost of bring CMR St Jean up to the new level.

How much better do you think CMR is as a recruitment tool than those Quebecers being able to stay home at Laval or UQAM with $5000 in their pocket?

$5000 dollars a year is about half of my tutition (Mech eng), and that's before rations and board. That's very little incentive for someone to stay around for 5 years minimum.

 

[Brasidas]

$5000 dollars a year is about half of my tutition (Mech eng), and that's before rations and board. That's very little incentive for someone to stay around for 5 years minimum.

This is on top of ROTP that we're talking about. They're already getting subsidized education and an obligation to serve. This is $5000 on top of that and the ability to stay at home (eg. local university vs St Jean).

 

[roborob]

This is on top of ROTP that we're talking about. They're already getting subsidized education and an obligation to serve. This is $5000 on top of that and the ability to stay at home (eg. local university vs St Jean).

So where does the ROTP money come from? there's currently only 50 spots for civi U ROTP.

 

[Brasidas]

So where does the ROTP money come from? there's currently only 50 spots for civi U ROTP.

Where does it come from for St Jean?

 

[roborob]

Where does it come from for St Jean?

From the $4 million, there isn't a degree issuing university there right now. That's what the money is for, to run a new university.

 

[SupersonicMax]

$4M a year is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.  Each F-18 pilot spends on average more than twice that in flight hours, each year!  I say let them have the University.  RMC was gettin overcrowded when I left and coupd not accomodate any increase in students.

 

[Loachman]

Then reduce the number of students, and resurrect OCTP.

 

[Journeyman]

$4M a year is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.  Each F-18 pilot spends on average more than twice that in flight hours, each year!  I say let them have the University.  RMC was gettin overcrowded when I left and coupd not accomodate any increase in students.

There has been all kinds of "residence" construction (apparently Cadets don't do "barracks").

Perhaps the other solution is to reduce "each F-18 pilots' flight hours"..... 

 

[proudmama]

CMR St Jean has apparently decided to take a new approach to the indoctrination of officer cadets. They are running the obstacle course on Friday, Sept 2nd but the badging and parade ceremony will only be on Saturday the 10th.

I know a lot of families would love to be there for either event but just can’t due to circumstances. My family is fortunate enough to be close enough to go down for one of the weekends but with a seven hour drive and limited vacation time available (needed to get there in time), going two weekends in a row will likely be too much. My preference is the obstacle course but my husband (having spent years in cadets) prefers the idea of attending the ceremony to see the drill and parade. I am open to any input someone who has been there has to offer!
It’s a disappointment because we had been expecting both events to be on the reunion weekend as the Commander’s letter in June to all the students, and all the ROTP programs descriptives, stated. I only caught the date change by happening to go online to the official web page for the school and spotting it in a title splash. I get that badging needs to happen when the alumni are there. I also understand that with the officer cadets just having come out of seven weeks at CFLRS, three more weeks of being CB is enough as for as the cadets are concerned. BUT, isn’t it kind of like cancelling the football game from a traditional university homecoming weekend? It sucks for families, alumni and other guests and makes it less of an immediate celebration/payoff for the officer cadets.

I suspect they wouldn’t try this kind of “minor adjustment” at RMCC. There is also a lack of official entry event at CMRSJ compared the RMCC arch parade, with the cadets being shipped over at night in a bus direct from BMOQ. If the powers that be don’t want CMRSJ feeling like its second class for officer cadets getting offers for First Year university there, they really should give some kind of consideration to the types of traditions RMCC proudly touts. 

Now that I have vented (and perhaps given a heads-up to some other misinformed parents), I will suck it up and accept this is another lesson in “rolling with it” as part of a military family. The first was my cadet having to skip high school graduation as it was three days after BMOQ started, the day after exams finished (which couldn’t be delayed due to the early CMRSJ start date which apparently has resulted in the reason for the early obstacle course).  Blah! (and my officer cadet has already declared no regrets re picking ROTP over high school graduation )

 

[Allie8]

I also agree. We will be making the 8+ hour drive both weekends as we don't want to miss either event. Proud mama here too

 

[Jay4th]

Continuing the Orientation Program for an extra week would have been a "make work project".
Because the students receive 6 weeks of basic training before arriving at CMR or RMC, the Orientation program can be much shorter. All the basic training stuff used to be during Orientation (marching, polishing, rank structure) , now its done at recruit school before arriving at the College.

The Orientation only exists now as a team building exercise and to get students accustomed to the time management needed at the college.
The Obstacle Course signals the end of the Orientation Program.  They receive some privileges and reduced work hours/restrictions afterwards.

Students will then have a full Labour Day Long Weekend, the first weekend off since 01 July for many of them.
The Alumni did not want to have their Badging parade near the long weekend (cottages and such), thus they are on separate weekends.

 

[MJP]

Continuing the Orientation Program for an extra week would have been a "make work project".
Because the students receive 6 weeks of basic training before arriving at CMR or RMC, the Orientation program can be much shorter. All the basic training stuff used to be during Orientation (marching, polishing, rank structure) , now its done at recruit school before arriving at the College.

The Orientation only exists now as a team building exercise and to get students accustomed to the time management needed at the college.
The Obstacle Course signals the end of the Orientation Program.  They receive some privileges and reduced work hours/restrictions afterwards.

Students will then have a full Labour Day Long Weekend, the first weekend off since 01 July for many of them.
The Alumni did not want to have their Badging parade near the long weekend (cottages and such), thus they are on separate weekends.

It is almost like you work there and have an idea of why things happen the way they do.

 

[Jay4th]

I am slowly learning.