Civilian Police to Military Police
- Thread starter LifeChanges
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Rocksteady, every different type of policing has its ups and downs and you can't compare them. You simply have to find the policing that suits you.
All the cops I know that work in large city departments did high volume initial response for a number of years before they ever started actually carrying any reasonably important investigations. They couldn't release a person without a supervisors permission. Then they moved into whatever specialty but get little experience in files outside their area of responsibility.
I know people in small town policing who do the whole range of investigations. They carry their files from cradle to grave. But don't often see high volumes of stuff. Call volume is no measure of how busy or satisfying the police work is.
I know other people in major crimes who do nothing but track tasks, write up search warrants ( essentially take info and fill it in the blanks on a template) and do up spreadsheets and charts. Not very challenging in my mind.
I worked on a reserve of 950 people, 2500 prisoners per year, ( yes, theoretically every resident getting jailed more than 2.5 times per year), 8 members and we did everything from monitoring the Band election, to arresting drunks, to investigating everything in the criminal code.
Each of these can be satisfying depending on what you are looking for. Don't be bitter. Just find another form of policing you enjoy.
All the cops I know that work in large city departments did high volume initial response for a number of years before they ever started actually carrying any reasonably important investigations. They couldn't release a person without a supervisors permission. Then they moved into whatever specialty but get little experience in files outside their area of responsibility.
I know people in small town policing who do the whole range of investigations. They carry their files from cradle to grave. But don't often see high volumes of stuff. Call volume is no measure of how busy or satisfying the police work is.
I know other people in major crimes who do nothing but track tasks, write up search warrants ( essentially take info and fill it in the blanks on a template) and do up spreadsheets and charts. Not very challenging in my mind.
I worked on a reserve of 950 people, 2500 prisoners per year, ( yes, theoretically every resident getting jailed more than 2.5 times per year), 8 members and we did everything from monitoring the Band election, to arresting drunks, to investigating everything in the criminal code.
Each of these can be satisfying depending on what you are looking for. Don't be bitter. Just find another form of policing you enjoy.
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Plus as an MP you get to deploy on operations, be posted to an Embassy. That's pretty cool.
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It's what you make of it.
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LifeChanges said:
I was curious as to what the OP's decision was. But, there is not much to go by.
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ExRCDcpl said:
On the one hand it shouldn't be much of an issue since they don't do much in the way of police work anyway. They are mainly administrators and the badge is required for various legal and administrative reasons. They do get more actual police training now on the MPOC then they did when I first started though. Ideally they should be mature enough to take the advice and guidance of their senior NCOs and WOs and use it to make sound decisions but unfortunately many in the new officer corps, for all trades, seem to not have been taught that tactic and they feel they can just go it alone because they are the officer and the one in charge.
Would it be better to have them come through the ranks? Perhaps but I'm not convinced. The bigger issue that many seem to lose sight of is that as much as some of these ideas may be good, we are not a stand alone police department. We are bound by the structural constrictions placed upon us by the CAF as a whole. The rank structure, promotion system, posting requirements, recruiting system....are all things we have very little control over or input within. While these all have an impact on how we are organized we still manage to make it work.
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putz said:
We already tried that a number of years back. Each officer who graduated his/her MPOC would be sent to an NIS Det or guardhouse for 6 months before they took up their first posting. It was eventually stopped for a number of reasons including, among others:
- there not being enough busy guardhouses to put 30+ officers at a time;
- those that ended up with a CFNIS Det often got exposed to various major cases but their ability to be involved was limited owing to their relatively brief stay and their inexperience;
- the costs to the CAF to send those pers across the country on DT, post them and their families to their permanent posting and then, in many cases, bring them back to the training location for court from those cases they were involved with, was seen to be not worth any perceived training value. Why not have them do their OJT at the base they are posted to? It was determined to not be appropriate from a training perspective and if the base they were posted to had a low op tempo or was a HQ it would not provide the training value you speak of; and
- just like with new Cpls, the officers were hired because there was a need for bodies and those guardhouses short on officers did not want to wait then additional 6 months or more for their warm body.
It may sound like a good idea, much like trying to mandate 3 range exes a year was, when you break it all down it just isn't practical or benificial.
Blackadder1916
Army.ca Fixture
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Inspir said:
Well, the military firefighters are not a branch of their own, just a trade within a branch. The officers who "command" them at the base level may not necessarily be firefighters and there may not be a need for them to be so. In the few instances that the requirements of an "officer" position (like the CF Fire Marshall) needs someone with a firefighting background/certification it seems to be filled usually by CFRs. The Military Police (like every other CF organization) needs to be overseen/commanded/managed/administered/screwed with by officers. Some of it is just the normal way of bureaucracy, most of it is the law - that thing called the National Defence Act. There are operationally valid and likely legal reasons why officers overseeing military policemen have to be sworn peace officers.
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Blackadder captured much of it and one other point I wanted to add is that MP Officers need to be badged MPs from not only a legal point of view but also from a liaison point of view.
MP officers are called upon to make law enforcement decisions which impact policies, operations, charges, prosecutions and a whole host of other tasks that require the legal authorities inherent with the badge they carry. They are also required to have access to police records that only can be accessed by badge carrying police officers, just ask any non-badged reserve MPO who has deployed or accepted a Class B or C tasking at a guardhouse and who couldn't access SAMPIS or CPIC. They also liaise quite often with our civilian counterparts who will not pass over info to a non-police officer.
MP officers are called upon to make law enforcement decisions which impact policies, operations, charges, prosecutions and a whole host of other tasks that require the legal authorities inherent with the badge they carry. They are also required to have access to police records that only can be accessed by badge carrying police officers, just ask any non-badged reserve MPO who has deployed or accepted a Class B or C tasking at a guardhouse and who couldn't access SAMPIS or CPIC. They also liaise quite often with our civilian counterparts who will not pass over info to a non-police officer.
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Schindler's Lift said:
No offense but 11 years of Mickey Mouse is exactly that. Invest doesn't get anywhere close to the files that police detectives do. CFNIS does have its merits but even then a basic level detective is doing bigger and more. Those are the truths. I have seen many chain of command and I have yet to be impressed from a policing stand point by any of them. That is my opinion formed from my experience and observations. The trade is a joke from a policing standpoint, Period. MPs should not be doing police work. They should only be doing security on a military base. Leave the police work to people that know what they are doing.
The MP trade has one of the lowest standards entry standards I have ever seen for a police service. It is by far the easiest to get into. That's why people jump ship as soon as they get a bit of experience.
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rocksteady said:
I'm finding your claims hard to believe.
I've met more idiot civil police officers than I have idiot MPs. Sure you can argue that having a college diploma doesn't make you smart, but it does give you a higher quality candidate pool. The RCMP and most municipal police services have no requirement for post-secondary education; only that you have a high school diploma and are of "good character." Their screening and weeding process is much more robust and lengthy, but that doesn't change the fact those organizations also have police officers that just can't do police work or investigations and end up riding a desk for the rest of their career.
Calgary and Edmonton Police Services have taken on many MPs over the years; in Calgary the last graduating class had 4 MPs 2 from Patrol, 1 from NCIU, and 1 from NIS. There's 46 years service between the 4 of them, the one from NCIU was the top recruit in class. He's now with Major Crimes and has been commended by the Chief on his investigative abilities.
J
jollyjacktar
Guest
rocksteady said:
If it's such a joke and sickens you, then GTFO. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to stay, and frankly with that outlook the trade would be better off being 200 lbs lighter.
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Lol, most awesome statement ever. You got in, you're still here, almost 7 years to this point. You have a "bit of experience", a police foundations diploma, a Bachelor's degree, police recruiters should be drooling all over themselves if you walk in the door, but you haven't been able to get picked up by a "real" police service. What does your statement say about yourself?rocksteady said:
What does your posting history on this website say about you?
You've been convicted for falling asleep on duty in Afghanistan, that says enough about your character and self discipline but... You don't do proper admin research on your own, instead you come to army.ca to have others do it for you, including something as simple as whether or not you can split MATA/PATA with your spouse. You don't want to be reachable when on weekends, leaving your co-workers hanging if a recall happens. You think you should have been excused a career course because you were going home for Easter, yet likely would have been the first to cry foul if an AR was done and your leaf removed for refusing to attend even though you were well past the point at which an AR is called for and refusing to attend a career course for personal reasons. You get a job offer and want the military to continue to employ you for 30 days until it starts even though your TOS were expired and you didn't want to sign a new one, yet you are now upset the military won't waive the six month requirement to break the TOS you subsequently signed, even though D Mil C's decision to start enforcing the policy again when the Branch went yellow was widely circulated multiple times when it happened. You expect the CAF to provide you with OTC pain meds on demand so you can have them around, "just in case". And now it looks like you seem to think we should pay you to go to school to get a SECOND bachelors degree so you can take your commission because your first degree isn't suitable for the classification you want, yet you couldn't make the cut for officer on your first try at CFAT and think a waiver should be granted even though the whole point of the cut off line of the CFAT is to set a benchmark for who is suitable for commissioning and who isn't.
Yet you complain about being treated as a child by the Branch. If your real life is any reflection of what you are portraying yourself as on this website, it isn't hard to figure out why.
You hate the Branch, we get it. We've gotten it for a while now. As JJT said, grow a set of balls, submit your six month release and beat it. But you won't. You will continue to expect us to employ you, to pay you, probably send you on gucci "police" courses to pad your resume, to cater to your other whims and be prepared to release you on the date of your choosing should you be so fortunate as to land a job on the outside.
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jollyjacktar said:
I was given offers of employment from two other services but the military wouldnt let me out un time to do training so I feel like I'm stuck.
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rocksteady said:
Did you ask for a hold-over? I know of a few RegF that were given Recruit Class hold-overs while they awaited their release. Once they were out, they were put onto the next class.
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garb811 said:
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rocksteady said:
Boohoo. You signed a contract, live up to it. If its all that important for you to leave then help us to improve the Branch you hate so much, put your release in and get out so you can take one of these other jobs. Its as simple as that. I know I'd appreciate it if you did.
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Schindler's Lift said:
Or another solution, if you see problems with something, write a briefing note to your Chain of Command, submit a UCR, etc.... don't fight the system, learn to work within it. Then again, that might takeaway time to whinge ;D
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