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IN HOC SIGNO said:
i just love the motto "By Air to Battle"....and what about this one?
Chinook named as intended purchase through PWGSC Advance Contract Award Notice
- Thread starter Good2Golf
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i just love the motto "By Air to Battle"....and what about this one?
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IN HOC SIGNO said:
Their motto was translated "Always Ready".....this is the squadron we need on the BHS....With the Navy motto of "Ready Aye Ready" and 447 motto "Always Ready" it's a match made in heaven ;D
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IN HOC SIGNO said:Any one remember these bad boys??
Yup!
Pics from one of my last op missions -- up to Goose Bay in '91 to drop off targets to the South PTA and supplies to various locations around the area.
By Air to Battle!
Duey
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beenthere,
we, i.e. AEREs, actually don't dwell in Ottawa dreaming up new schemes to make us invaluable or irreplaceable, although this gave me a good laugh. Perhaps one bad experience with one AERE has spoiled your opinion of us all?
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The main reason why the Griffon is hard to maintain is due to the maintenance package that the CF selected when we purchased the aircraft, not due to the techs. Simply put, the a/c is overmaintained. Average hours on Griffon in Pet was around 200 to 250 hrs per YEAR! So, when it came time for the 600 hr/12 month inspection, we were bringing a/c down not because of it being unserviceable or reaching the hour limit, but due to calendar time. There are reasons why some components are to be replaced due to time, but don't kid yourself, Bell Helicopters makes their money by providing spare parts. There are alternative maintenance packages that can be followed and that will meet airworthiness requirements, but we rely too heavily on Bell to make decisions for us in regards to what actually belongs on a 600 hr. Do you think that Bell will want to limit their cashflow? What it will take is for some hardnose at DAEPM to tell Bell that the maintenance package needs to be redone or we take on the responsibility ourselves, vice relying on Bell for everything (such as NSRs, mods, etc.)
ASD or Alternative Service Delivery, is nice on paper, but in reality has problems. It is good for static locs where no bullets are wizzing by. Let me ask you this, is your civy tech going to pick up a rifle and do guard duty? Is he going to defend the base as it is attacked? I think we all know the answer to this one.
Reality is that the CF and 1 Wing has very good techs that are more than capable of churning out a/c. However, don't tie one hand behind our backs by signing some stupid maintenance package that looks good on paper, but in reality doesn't work.
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I was recently in Kingston and visited a certain HQ. No decisions had been made, but one option included having a Sqn that was actually much larger, in terms of personnel, than a current Tac Hel Sqn. I didn't catch the rest of the info in regards to whether or not an existing Sqn would be re-roled or a new one stood up. I'm pretty sure that all options are on the table, including mixing Griffons and Chinooks at a Sqn(s), or phasing out the Griffon completely at the "Chinook" Sqn(s).
we, i.e. AEREs, actually don't dwell in Ottawa dreaming up new schemes to make us invaluable or irreplaceable, although this gave me a good laugh. Perhaps one bad experience with one AERE has spoiled your opinion of us all?
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The main reason why the Griffon is hard to maintain is due to the maintenance package that the CF selected when we purchased the aircraft, not due to the techs. Simply put, the a/c is overmaintained. Average hours on Griffon in Pet was around 200 to 250 hrs per YEAR! So, when it came time for the 600 hr/12 month inspection, we were bringing a/c down not because of it being unserviceable or reaching the hour limit, but due to calendar time. There are reasons why some components are to be replaced due to time, but don't kid yourself, Bell Helicopters makes their money by providing spare parts. There are alternative maintenance packages that can be followed and that will meet airworthiness requirements, but we rely too heavily on Bell to make decisions for us in regards to what actually belongs on a 600 hr. Do you think that Bell will want to limit their cashflow? What it will take is for some hardnose at DAEPM to tell Bell that the maintenance package needs to be redone or we take on the responsibility ourselves, vice relying on Bell for everything (such as NSRs, mods, etc.)
ASD or Alternative Service Delivery, is nice on paper, but in reality has problems. It is good for static locs where no bullets are wizzing by. Let me ask you this, is your civy tech going to pick up a rifle and do guard duty? Is he going to defend the base as it is attacked? I think we all know the answer to this one.
Reality is that the CF and 1 Wing has very good techs that are more than capable of churning out a/c. However, don't tie one hand behind our backs by signing some stupid maintenance package that looks good on paper, but in reality doesn't work.
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I was recently in Kingston and visited a certain HQ. No decisions had been made, but one option included having a Sqn that was actually much larger, in terms of personnel, than a current Tac Hel Sqn. I didn't catch the rest of the info in regards to whether or not an existing Sqn would be re-roled or a new one stood up. I'm pretty sure that all options are on the table, including mixing Griffons and Chinooks at a Sqn(s), or phasing out the Griffon completely at the "Chinook" Sqn(s).
If they are going to base the new Chinooks out of any base I would say Wainwright. it is the manouver base for the CF. Some will argue this point, but most of the future training and work up for the Army is to be carried out there.
Although it would be nice to have a complement on every Army base that isnt practicle with the amount we are buying.
16 helicopters, 4 in Wainwright, 6 over seas and the remainder as back ups.
Wainwright with it's close proximity to the mountains, coast line, praries and the desert conditions in the interior of BC would afford the best solution for training not only the Aircrews but also the troops riding in the back of them.
With four large airports all with in a few hours flying, Calgary, Edmonton International/ City center, The Garrison in Edmonton, and then Cold lake. Not to mention that Wainwright also has a large airstrip that maybe transformed one day to a paved one if not already. This coupled to the proximity to Suffiled and I think we have a winner for the most strategic place to be for military operations.
Although Trenton would be nice, they are far away from the manouver training center, The only benifit I can see is the transport fleet is their. For the most part I would think that any Chinooks bought and sent over seas would be aboard ship. Not sure if the heavy lift A/C can hold a Chopper of that size inside it's cargo bay.
One thing I would like to see though would be for the major training centers to gain A/C including Helo's and even a couple of Hercs to their training compliment. This way the center can be in charge of and responsible for their own assests.
Although it would be nice to have a complement on every Army base that isnt practicle with the amount we are buying.
16 helicopters, 4 in Wainwright, 6 over seas and the remainder as back ups.
Wainwright with it's close proximity to the mountains, coast line, praries and the desert conditions in the interior of BC would afford the best solution for training not only the Aircrews but also the troops riding in the back of them.
With four large airports all with in a few hours flying, Calgary, Edmonton International/ City center, The Garrison in Edmonton, and then Cold lake. Not to mention that Wainwright also has a large airstrip that maybe transformed one day to a paved one if not already. This coupled to the proximity to Suffiled and I think we have a winner for the most strategic place to be for military operations.
Although Trenton would be nice, they are far away from the manouver training center, The only benifit I can see is the transport fleet is their. For the most part I would think that any Chinooks bought and sent over seas would be aboard ship. Not sure if the heavy lift A/C can hold a Chopper of that size inside it's cargo bay.
One thing I would like to see though would be for the major training centers to gain A/C including Helo's and even a couple of Hercs to their training compliment. This way the center can be in charge of and responsible for their own assests.
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CTD,
it wouldn't be possible in terms of expertise, money, etc. to have each major training base have control of their own assets. They may be farmed out to them via different command relationships, but the overall control would most likely still rest with the unit that was flying the a/c.
Before the loc is picked of where to put the new big-honking-helo, the Army will need to tell the AF what they expect us to do with them. Then a decision can be reached as to where to place the new helos. Since 1 Wing usually is the primary supporter for the Army for rotary wing, you can bet that they will be involved in these discussions.
it wouldn't be possible in terms of expertise, money, etc. to have each major training base have control of their own assets. They may be farmed out to them via different command relationships, but the overall control would most likely still rest with the unit that was flying the a/c.
Before the loc is picked of where to put the new big-honking-helo, the Army will need to tell the AF what they expect us to do with them. Then a decision can be reached as to where to place the new helos. Since 1 Wing usually is the primary supporter for the Army for rotary wing, you can bet that they will be involved in these discussions.
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Cool pics Duey! What a great machine eh? what do you think of the argument that they should be based in Wainwright?
I wonder if we have the infrastructure there. I mean we can build stuff for the military machines but what about families? Are there enough properties at hand to start posting large numbers of folks out there in addition to the CMTC folks?
I wonder if we have the infrastructure there. I mean we can build stuff for the military machines but what about families? Are there enough properties at hand to start posting large numbers of folks out there in addition to the CMTC folks?
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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The Wainwright that you may have known is no more. Well....it has changed a lot. There is a lot of money being pumped into it. New facilities, new PMQs, new Quarters, all for the New Training Center. It will take over many of the things taught or done in Gagetown, freeing up Gagetown to conduct increased training in its main areas of concern.
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Actually, Gagetown will continue with all training it has done except for the Adv TOW course. All field oriented individual training for officers, as well as individual training for all NCOs and WOs (less PLQ) and some basic trades training will continue to occur in Gagetown. Wainwright will be the "collective training" fun-zone that will host higher-than-company level training.George Wallace said:
Just wanted to clear up any myths.
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Still close enough on track to the initial effort in the thread starter's mind, Infanteer... 
I think you'll see LFWA, and don't forget it has much of the JTF-W command and control functionality as well, stay in Edmonton. Folks shouldn't confuse an operational training facility with other strategic siting issues.
For aviation, we will be involved in many of the training evolutions that will occur at CMTC, but much as you will never see LdSH or 1 or 3VP or 1 CER move to Wainright, so will you not see 408 (+ whatever org?) move lock stock and barrel to Wainright. There are other things that aviation related to the "Canada First" aspect than uniquely service to the Army. That said, don't forget, Buxton DZ is not in Wainright...you guys will be able to do lots of IT/unit trg very near to you home lines.
In Hoc, yup she was fun to fly, that's for sure...for those who haven't flown it, guys will be quite surprized at its capability, especially including manoeuvrability! Re: Wainright, I think the Western MOB for Chinook is pretty much a question of will 408 provide 146/147A capability as a composite unit, or will there be another unit (447?) stood up to assume the heavy lift role. Frankly, we need clear direction from higher before we start situating an estimate about bed down options for the fleet.
Where do I see aviation heading, to be honest, there is so much uncertainty about structure specifics that it would be verging towards irresponsible for me to even publicly hazard a guess. I think this is truly a case of "time will tell"!
Cheers,
Duey
I think you'll see LFWA, and don't forget it has much of the JTF-W command and control functionality as well, stay in Edmonton. Folks shouldn't confuse an operational training facility with other strategic siting issues.
For aviation, we will be involved in many of the training evolutions that will occur at CMTC, but much as you will never see LdSH or 1 or 3VP or 1 CER move to Wainright, so will you not see 408 (+ whatever org?) move lock stock and barrel to Wainright. There are other things that aviation related to the "Canada First" aspect than uniquely service to the Army. That said, don't forget, Buxton DZ is not in Wainright...you guys will be able to do lots of IT/unit trg very near to you home lines.
In Hoc, yup she was fun to fly, that's for sure...for those who haven't flown it, guys will be quite surprized at its capability, especially including manoeuvrability! Re: Wainright, I think the Western MOB for Chinook is pretty much a question of will 408 provide 146/147A capability as a composite unit, or will there be another unit (447?) stood up to assume the heavy lift role. Frankly, we need clear direction from higher before we start situating an estimate about bed down options for the fleet.
Where do I see aviation heading, to be honest, there is so much uncertainty about structure specifics that it would be verging towards irresponsible for me to even publicly hazard a guess. I think this is truly a case of "time will tell"!
Cheers,
Duey
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Were would you move it too, Suffield?
Hopefully the location of the new aircraft will be determined using wisdom rather than the winner of a contest over who's toy box they go to. Between federal politics and military politics there's more than enough potential to locate them where they're wanted rather than where they should be and that could have a considerable effect on their effectiveness.
They will certainly require considerable support--probably a lot more than most people realize and since it's been some time since we last operated them probably no one recalls how much of the support came from the bases where they were located.
As I posted earlier there are many specialities that have to come from established air bases as the units that operate and maintain the aircraft are limited and have to rely on larger than squadron establishments for support.
In past operations there was always a base with support and one of the downsides of the squadrons was an attempt to operate in isolation from the base and try to be self reliant. Fortunately most of the self support proved to be inadequate and the squadrons eventually became more integrated into the structure of the bases with positive results. In a couple of instances it was the base that isolated itself from the squadron but that was just petty politics which also changed with time.
Looking at the big picture the aircraft can deploy to whatever training area that is being used for exercises and the only infrastructure they require is a paved helepad and a hangar.That certainly wouldn't be much in terms of construction and maintenance.
They will certainly require considerable support--probably a lot more than most people realize and since it's been some time since we last operated them probably no one recalls how much of the support came from the bases where they were located.
As I posted earlier there are many specialities that have to come from established air bases as the units that operate and maintain the aircraft are limited and have to rely on larger than squadron establishments for support.
In past operations there was always a base with support and one of the downsides of the squadrons was an attempt to operate in isolation from the base and try to be self reliant. Fortunately most of the self support proved to be inadequate and the squadrons eventually became more integrated into the structure of the bases with positive results. In a couple of instances it was the base that isolated itself from the squadron but that was just petty politics which also changed with time.
Looking at the big picture the aircraft can deploy to whatever training area that is being used for exercises and the only infrastructure they require is a paved helepad and a hangar.That certainly wouldn't be much in terms of construction and maintenance.
civmick
Jr. Member
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Could do what the Dutch did with Apache - they got leased 64As to work up on while waiting for the 64D deliveries. RAF types on PPRuNe recently compared it favourably to the RAF's own "get Westlands to build them and see what happens".
Does the US or Boeing have any stored Chinooks that could be "borrowed"?
Does the US or Boeing have any stored Chinooks that could be "borrowed"?
I would suspect that any Chinooks that are in storage are rather tired older models that are earmarked for upgrading to current requirements.
With the vast difference between what we are getting and older models they wouldn't make good trainers at any rate.We're getting something that's quite sophisticated when compared with the older ones so operating them is a whole new game.
With the vast difference between what we are getting and older models they wouldn't make good trainers at any rate.We're getting something that's quite sophisticated when compared with the older ones so operating them is a whole new game.
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