Chance of Deployment [Merged]

[warrickdll]

The point I was trying to make was that over the past 18 months (between ATHENA Roto 1 and TFA Roto 1) the number of infantry companies deployed was scaled back, while most of the other branches were not.  To a new Pte in an Infantry battalion this would probably be frustrating.  The CSS slice for the smaller task forces stayed relatively large (fixed "costs" I suppose).

So why was there a scale-back? It appeared purely political at the time (Canada won't say No to deploying but we will slow deployment down and beg poverty hoping Afghanistan will solve itself). But if there is still a tempo problem why the dysfunction in deploying a small force of about 2 battalion equivalents (indefinitely with 12 battalion equivalents)? Is it CSS specific?

Another issue with tempo is the state of our sub-units.  Can all of our sub-units be considered up to strength?  How much cascading or collapsing is required?

Aside from some flex why would they not be?
- Is there a shortage of applicants?
- Are there enough applicants but no budget for recruits?
- Is there a sufficient recruit training budget but insufficient numbers of instructors?

I guess with 1 line of operations then cascading and collapsing (all new terms in this context for me) would solve any numbers deficiencies, but with 2 lines then ensuring unit strengths would seem to be prudent.

Is this were the reserves could best fit in (fleshing out sub-units)?

I thought for the good of humanity you wanted to avoid opening that up? Depends on why you have reserves - at a guess full recruiting would be more cost effective than to have an entire army reserve structure to provide some augmentees. But if reserve augmentation is required to fulfill the reasons you have the reserves - then yes.

Another interesting wrinkle is what happens to the morale of a task force that trains up for a line of operations and does not deploy?

Bitterness can be character building. As much as trying to get that force on to the next tasking would be great, there is also the reality that many individuals would be sent elsewhere in the interim. Disappointment is part of all life, military or not.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

You're right.  Bringing up the Reserve bit was risky!  The danger of thinking on the fly and posting late at night.

By cascading I was referring to taking soldiers from one sub-unit that has recently returned and placing them with a different sub-unit about to deploy.  By collapsing I was referring to combining two sub-units to make one.  They certainly aren't doctrinal terms!  Hopefully the fruits of any increased recruiting will first be used to bring units up to strength (with deployable people).

There was an "operational pause" at the end of ATHENA Roto 1 to give the Army (and the CF I suppose) a chance to regenerate.  APOLLO, PALLADIUM and ATHENA had resulted in two rather large battlegroups being deployed simulataneously to different theatres, although there was a break between APOLLO and ATHENA.  The first two ATHENA rotos were particularly large.  The new managed readiness plan was also put on the street around the time of the pause being announced, so I do think that the pause was instituted to get the Army tuned up for potential increased efforts.   

The smaller rotos (Roto 2 through 4) had one Recce Sqn, one small Infantry Coy (between 2 and 3 Pls depending on the Roto), an Engineer Sqn, the NSE, HSS (medics etc) and the NCE (forgive me if I forgot some elements). 
In Petawawa we mounted two of these Rotos in a row, so the "pause" was a relative term.  Still, its hard to judge the level of operational exhaustian before, during and after the pause.  We take lots of surveys, but I'm not sure if we track that particular metric.  Perhaps the sentiment in the infantry regarding disatisfaction with not getting tours was a side effect of the "pause", and therefore a temporary thing?

We are now coming out of that pause, with a large task foce in the process of deploying and another "on deck" to fill a potential second line.  If we do end up running two lines of operations, I think that most soldiers will satisfy their demand for deployment.  Is 12 to 18 months too quick for turnaround between tours?

 

[George Wallace]

Another interesting wrinkle is what happens to the morale of a task force that trains up for a line of operations and does not deploy?

Example:

CAR prepped and set to go to the Sahara.  Stop Dropped.  Later went to Somalia.

Yes, the morale of a unit takes a S_____ Kicking when they train for a deployment and then don't go.

 

[Blakey]

Yes, the morale of a unit takes a S_____ Kicking when they train for a deployment and then don't go.

I can defiantly sympathize with that statement...2 PPCLI 1995 "The Tour That Never Was...", months of work-up training in Canada, and the US (Fort Ripley). We were told by the Bde Comd

" %99.99 that your are defiantly going"

at the beginning of the exercise in Ripley. End Ex was called, we even had a BG picture taken! (lol), BG Comd flies in on his helo, gets off and basically says 'Oh yeah, you're not going, the VanDoos are'

Talk about a kick in the nuts...

 

[warrickdll]

By cascading I was referring to taking soldiers from one sub-unit that has recently returned and placing them with a different sub-unit about to deploy.  By collapsing I was referring to combining two sub-units to make one.

Thanks for the clarification 2Bravo.

One day, while shooting the breeze with others (so I can't claim credit for the idea - and can possibly avoid any blame) we discussed whether 1 year instead of 6 months would be more practical. At the end of the discussion it turned out that most would have preferred to do 4 months but with less support.
As in: No leave; No leave centers; No Atco breeding grounds; No fixed address. So operate as in the field for the 4 months complete with Rolling Replen, Mobile LBU, and ensuring that the longer we stay the less we recreate a garrison. It would require an orientational shift in some CSS assets.
Now this might be the way it is now (I don't know Afghanistan), but the longer the CF stayed in Yugo (or anywhere for that matter) it seemed the more we began to reside there. Of course this is probably completely unrealistic, as it would see an increase in the number of training cycles, more transportation costs, and increased concerns about local knowledge. But perhaps knowing why we don't approach this problem from other angles might reveal the best course available.

 

[Armymedic]

Okay, busy, but we like it busy, right?  Who exactly are the people who keep hiding behind the curtain and crying to the padre that they are too busy?

My point is that, if they can't hack it now, they could not have hacked it in the bad old days either.  The pace was hectic then as well.

On that you are unequivocal correct.

 

[c_canuk]

Thanks for the clarification 2Bravo.

One day, while shooting the breeze with others (so I can't claim credit for the idea - and can possibly avoid any blame) we discussed whether 1 year instead of 6 months would be more practical. At the end of the discussion it turned out that most would have preferred to do 4 months but with less support.
As in: No leave; No leave centers;

Love that Idea, it causes a lot of admin headaches and you end up with a large part of your time accommodating everyone's leave... not fun for me in the Com Cen I imagine it's not fun for anyone else either

No Atco breeding grounds;

oh man I would have loved to not have to ever deal with ATCO again, how the heck a civy who doesn't work weekends, holidays, before 0900, after 1500, makes twice what I do, and knows half as much for the post as a trained soldier in an operational theater let alone at home, makes sense I will never know... and It chaffed the heck out of me when my job as Assistant LAN administrator was changed to 1st level help desk cause they wanted ATCO and their supposed superiority to run things. They tied my hands because I couldn't be trusted(If I had the Admin passwords it would have become 100% appearant to all that they were useless and not needed) with administrator passwords so I had to request work orders to do things that should have taken me 5 minutes.

Now this might be the way it is now (I don't know Afghanistan), but the longer the CF stayed in Yugo (or anywhere for that matter) it seemed the more we began to reside there.

Take LOGBATT here in the GOLAN as near as I can figure it the only people served by logbat is logbat and the rest of the mission is served by UNDOF HQ and ROD... small wonder the CDS seen this place as a waste of resources.

EDIT: Removed excessive and potentially career damaging rant about unrealistic demands

 

[warrickdll]

c_canuk:

My mistake for using such an ambiguous term as ATCO (though it looks as though it was therapeutic for you  ). I was referring to the prefab trailers used as temporary offices and accommodations by the CF (commonly seen on construction sites). Unfortunately it is the only name I know them by.

 

[armyvern]

Hmmmm C-Canuk,

Being on the dark side over there I can see that you do not have an understaning of UNDOF (TFG) at all. There is Logbatt...which serves the entire UN Mission over there. That would be the entire of all the Logabatt Supply section. Now those that work in Camp Services Supply for example, the QM are there to serve just the Canadian Contingent.
We provided all the rations, T.P., etc ad nauseum for all contingents (even those in Faouar).
Now being a siggy over there, I'm sure that you could not have missed those daily deliveries to your camp from our Camp or Posn 22, 27, et al throughout the AOS? ...and deliveries not just to you but to the Austrians, Polish etc et al? You're leading a very sheltered life on your tour if you think there were a couple hundred Canadians over there supporting a couple of hundred Canadians. There were a couple hundred Canadians supporting a few thousand UN troops. Holy smokes.
Camp Services (what all 16 of them??) supported CanCon...the rest of us who didn't belong to CS....supported everyone else.

 

[TCBF]

Just wait until there is no more VAC money for soldiers because it will be paying PTSD pensions to all of the civvie crack babies who 'toured' on contract in Bosnia and Afghanistan, etc.

 

[Carbon-14]

Armyvern,

I suppose I was a bit rash there, but those daily deliveries are pretty much all done by J CON these days, you are right however that the wharehouse is run by canadians, but from UNDOF HQ's point of view the support they get from LoGBatt is very limited, though a large part of that is probably due to preparing to turn the mission over to the Ukranians last year and the Indians this year. I'm sure you are right and there is a lot of things I don't see going on, but Logbat, from the view point of UNDOF HQ, has gradually isolated itself from the rest of the mission.

 

[c_canuk]

Sorry all did it again (forgot to make sure I was logged in and not Carbon 14) that last reply was me, not Carbon 14 (he's off for lunch)

 

[George Wallace]

As a Siggie, you comments surprise me.  The pair of you are not taking any precautions with your IT Security.  Carbon14 should have logged off or locked his station.  You should also.  That or you overrode his/her password, which is also a Security concern.  You people are BAD.  Now wack your pee pee and get back to work.

 

[Carbon-14]

As a Siggie, you comments surprise me.  The pair of you are not taking any precautions with your IT Security.  Carbon14 should have logged off or locked his station.  You should also.  That or you overrode his/her password, which is also a Security concern.  You people are BAD.   Now wack your pee pee and get back to work.

Its a UN computer with an account for the position not the individual.  So several of us use the same account. I should have logged off Army.ca though.

** edit **

And i am working.  I said "roger out" on the radio, like, 15 minutes ago.

 

[armyvern]

Armyvern,

I suppose I was a bit rash there, but those daily deliveries are pretty much all done by J CON these days, you are right however that the wharehouse is run by canadians, but from UNDOF HQ's point of view the support they get from LoGBatt is very limited, though a large part of that is probably due to preparing to turn the mission over to the Ukranians last year and the Indians this year. I'm sure you are right and there is a lot of things I don't see going on, but Logbat, from the view point of UNDOF HQ, has gradually isolated itself from the rest of the mission.

Yes JCon does the driving. Accompanied by a Canadian. Don't know how many trips I did on the daily fresh and dairy runs into Tiberias sitting in between the 2 JCon personnel cursing to myself as they drove at 22km an hour making a 25 minute trip take a full work day. So JCon does the driving (I say again..."accompanied by a Canadian"). And oh yeah the Canadians do the warehousing. That's a good point. And the ordering, and the purchasing, and the customs work for all the items coming through Syria from Cyprus and Europe to our Warehouses on the Israeli side) and the stocking, and the pulling of the items to satisfy all those demands from the entire AOS - including your Camp -. Speaking of which we also have to repackage each and every entire roll of toilet paper, paper towell....anything purchased on the Israeli side (including all your food) into bags/boxes etc to get rid of all the Hebrew on them because, as I'm sure you are aware....it is illegal in Syria to have anything with the words "made in Israel" etc or Hebrew on it anywhere. Right down to your box of "made in Israel pencils." Yep, Jap Con drives...and us Canuks do nothing.

We do so much of nothing as a matter of fact that UNHQ NY and UNDOF HQ fought to keep the Canadians over there because we do such an excellent job of doing nothing supporting those couple thousand infantry guys from other countries. So I don't know where your pulling your information from but I can asure you it was not the UN or UNDOF HQ who the decision rested with.

Gee even being on the Faoaur side, I figured you knew about your own counterparts working in Zouani with another UN contributing nation....not supporting Canadians. I confirmed with one of my Cpls who's over there now...that indeed we are still doing all of which I just stated......

 

[c_canuk]

It seems to me that the majority of the people working for logbat are not supporting the mission but supporting a small number of people who are doing very impotant work supporting the mission. It seems to me that the ratio is very skewed and a lot of the people in what looks to me to be the larger group seem to think that Logbat is the mission.

I'm very fustrated because when I'm trying to do my job and certain people on the otherside are making it very difficult because they have the view that LogBat is the mission, not that LogBat supports the mission and they are putting me in a very uncomfortable place with UNDOF HQ where I work.

But if you say that I'm RTF out of er, I'll take your word for it as you've shown you definitly know what you are talking about, and I guess I'll should STFU. :-[

PS ask your corporal about Pancakes. you'll get a general impression on how this is going down, and how I may be faring since the only time they think about my dept is when they want some of my resources, and don't care what happens when they take them...

 

[armyvern]

It seems to me that the majority of the people working for logbat are not supporting the mission but supporting a small number of people who are doing very impotant work supporting the mission. It seems to me that the ratio is very skewed and a lot of the people in what looks to me to be the larger group seem to think that Logbat is the mission.

Yep...cause you work on the other side and aren't part of Logbatt. By your own words previously to me you rarely go there...so it would seem to me that your judgement on the ratio and what they do over there every day may be very skewed.

I'm very fustrated because when I'm trying to do my job and certain people on the otherside are making it very difficult because they have the view that LogBat is the mission, not that LogBat supports the mission and they are putting me in a very uncomfortable place with UNDOF HQ where I work.

Ahmmm, just as your job is to support the mission. No offense but they (the Logbatt folks) are simultaneously doing a close-out TAV, still supporting those couple thousand infantry guys and the rest of UNDOF with all their Logistcal requirements, and to top it off are at the same time trying to get 100% stocktakings done while simultaneously training and providing OJT to all the incoming troops from India (and I'm sure the language barrier is quite entertaining to say the least)...and you think you're frustrated?? Good thing you're not part of Logbatt...because then you'd really be under some pressure and be frustrated wouldn't you?

But if you say that I'm RTF out of er, I'll take your word for it as you've shown you definitly know what you are talking about, and I guess I'll should STFU. :-[

Well apparently you definatly know what you're talking about WRT Logbatt  :

PS ask your corporal about Pancakes. you'll get a general impression on how this is going down, and how I may be faring since the only time they think about my dept is when they want some of my resources, and don't care what happens when they take them...

I actually exchange e-mails with him quite reguarily a couple of times a week, along with some more senior pers over there. So I've heard all about it. First tour close-out for you I'm guessing here. Situation normal is what I hear from those who've done it before. Yep...I think to do their jobs, a close-out and a handover to another nation simultaneously you should be experiencing a great increase in their requirements for "your" resources. If you weren't experiencing this....something would definetly be majorly wrong.

Sit back and just think about it.

 

[c_canuk]

Yep...cause you work on the other side and aren't part of Logbatt.

I AM part of log bat, and I answer to Logbatt sigs, which is why I have 2 chains of command.

Ahmmm, just as your job is to support the mission. No offense but they (the Logbatt folks) are simultaneously doing a close-out TAV, still supporting those couple thousand infantry guys and the rest of UNDOF with all their Logistcal requirements, and to top it off are at the same time trying to get 100% stocktakings done while simultaneously training and providing OJT to all the incoming troops from India (and I'm sure the language barrier is quite entertaining to say the least)...and you think you're frustrated??

I am also simultaneously doing a close-out with the limitations I sent you in a PM, while still supporting UNDOF HQ and providing OJT to all the incoming replacements

Good thing you're not part of Logbatt...because then you'd really be under some pressure and be frustrated wouldn't you?

Frig...

The Big beef I have with the other side is that they forget I'm one of them, and think that I'm just a resources sponge to be squeezed at will, BTW CF is closing Before CZ.


However

*backing away with hands palms out*

not looking for confrontation, I admit I don't know everything thats going on, and my main beef is with sigs anyway... I'm sorry I strayed out of my arcs.

 

[Smity199]

Hey guys, Im going to BMQ on sept 1st for Infantry (Reg) and Im just wondering how long after you finish BMQ and SQ will you be ready to go overseas? are there other specific courses for say serving in afghanistan? and which regiments tend to see more action or is it all equal, like If im in the 3rd batallion (light infantry) will I be more likely to go overseas as opposed to being in a mechanized unit? Im just wondering because Ive had people tell me that I wont get to go overseas in particular to afghanistan and that ive missed the proverbial boat. I would be extremely dissapointed if I went through my first 3 years and never got to fight. Im joining the forces and infantry in particular to go to other countries and make a difference on the ground and see the world with my own eyes.
thanks  in advance for any info or answers anyone has
-Smity

 

[ltmaverick25]

The RCR and the PPCLI are deploying more often then the Royal 22nd Vandoos due to politics.

After SQ you will need to take your infantry trades course called DP1.  I beleive that is the bare minimum that would allow you to go to Afghanistan.  If you get them all done back to back its possible you may find yourself on one of the last tours.  Someone with more knowledge on the infantry side will have to give you more specifics though.