CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[Jammer]

Wow!
Somebody is bitchy tonight.
While he may be off the mark in some respect to comparisons, I think what he might be alluding to is that the Griffon is a POS.
It should never have been bought as a UTTH, however politics being fickle and all (they were built by Bell in Montreal), they were thrust upon us.
A militarized Bell-412SP (read: they have mil-spec radios in them.), really wasn't they way to go.
So sit back relax and think about this...AESOP = JAFO

 

[aesop081]

the Griffon is a POS.

Irrelevant. If you were to say "Blackhawk" instead of the 146 and say it should be replaced by the Cyclone you have the same problem.

...AESOP = JAFO

Far from it. I doubt you have the first damned clue what i do and what i am trained to do.

 

[Roy Harding]

ezbeatz:

Somehow I missed this thread - here's a repeat of what I said over on the Helicopters thread:

You do realize that you are arguing with CF airmen who have thousands of hours of flying experience, don't you?

I spent four years jumping out of military aircraft - and I have never considered that that experience gave me any insight into flying the damned things - I was just happy to get the hell out of them.

I think you're attempting to learn something here - and you've come to the right place for it.  Just pull in your horns a bit, stop being argumentative - and ask your questions.  I think you'll learn more that way.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Wow!
Somebody is bitchy tonight.

Apparantly...so what are you so upset about?  8)

While he may be off the mark in some respect to comparisons, I think what he might be alluding to is that the Griffon is a POS.

Take a quick look thru his posting history.

So sit back relax and think about this...AESOP = JAFO

JAFO is a term I am familiar with, being former Armd Recce.  I would use the term JAFO for me if I was on CDN Aviators crew tomorrow (which ain't gonna happen, but I'd certainly be a JAFO on a flight at this point), but not anyone who is at his level in the trade. 

I'd not sit here and tell you all a Sig Op does is say "radio check, over".  Because that would be..well...stupid of me, and you've been around longer than me. 

Your call. 

 

[Jammer]

Does no one have a sense of humour tonight.
Aviator:
I have a pretty damn good idea about your job...my Dad spent 15yrs on the Argus doing the same thing...steam driven, but the principle don't change.
Time to get off the self rightous bus mate.

 

[aesop081]

my Dad spent 15yrs on the Argus doing the same thing...steam driven, but the principle don't change.

You would be surprised but yeah...you win.......i just look around.

Time to get off the self rightous bus mate.

Sure. cant wait for your reaction when i post about how great the tacvest is......

 

[Jammer]

I use my own rig...thanks for the thought though.
I ignore it later

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Time for people to STFU and stay in their lanes.

Wanna bitch like schoolkids? Take it to PMs so the rest of us don't have to watch you measure your dicks.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Good2Golf]

Wow!
Somebody is bitchy tonight.

CDN Aviator just showed it more than the rest of us...but I'm not wearing a mod hat at the moment, and I'm feeling a bit of a bitchy twinge too...perhaps it's the ignorant blaze past a polite warning earlier that gets under one's skin...but I do have thousands of hours of flying time and close to a quarter century of helo flying in the CF, so I figured there was something backing up earlier attempts to guide and inform.  How about some kid started telling you about using and denying the EM spectrum and that you were misguided in how you thought the profession of signalling?

While he may be off the mark in some respect to comparisons, I think what he might be alluding to is that the Griffon is a POS.

My professional view, with a bit less than a thousand hours on the Griffon, is that HE IS WRONG! (...and that is with a couple of thousand hours on two other tactical helicopter types in the last 20 years - hint: utility and heavy lifters) 

The Griffon is no more a POS than your PRC-117F is...if you ask too much of something, beyond what it was designed for, it is too easy to ignorantly call it a POS.

It should never have been bought as a UTTH, however politics being fickle and all (they were built by Bell in Montreal), they were thrust upon us.
A militarized Bell-412SP (read: they have mil-spec radios in them.), really wasn't they way to go.

It's a B214CF, which is a militarized EP (note, two further model improvements after the 1978 SP, and the mid-80's HP variants).  You also forgot the MIL-STD-1553B dual digital databus that no other Bell 412 has, amongst other militarization like IR supression systems, laser warning receivers, while we're talking about all the other things it and no other Bell 412 have...

So sit back relax and think about this...AESOP = JAFO

Uncalled for dig.

G2G

*posted in the spirit that this would have been out before Recceguy locked it if I hadn't gone for a quick break prior to hitting 'Post'*

 

[Jammer]

Ack 5X5.
My apologies for not being more informed technically.
The point I was trying to make (but failed), was that by adding all the whiz bangy self defense suites to the Griffon, does it not make it a less capable helicopter in terms of how it is employed?
When I left Kandahar a few months ago, a good deal of the CLP overwatches were still being done by OH-58Ds, even though CHFA was declared OPRED in Jan to do this which from what I understood at the time was to be it's primary job.
In defence of CHFA, and with out violating OPSEC they have had some phenominal success's though.
Once again, mea culpa.

 

[Loachman]

Meaning that a replacement or upgrade for the current CH-146 Griffon will have to be looked at by about 2010 for a delivery date of 2016/17.

As long as the role does not significantly change, there are no major fatigue issues, and Bell and Pratt and Whitney continue to support the airframe and engines (most likely for some time to come), no major upgrade is likely to continue operations.

That does not mean that an upgrade is not desireable. I'd pick the UH1Y under development for the US Marines for the utility role, or the Black Hawk, for the utility role.

I would NOT pick something that nobody else was using in a particular role. Nobody else has shown much interest in Cyclone, but there are most likely going to be Yanks wherever we go. Standardizing on what they use makes sense - and a whole bunch more sense than standardizing upon something purchased for a Naval support role. Our Tac Hel doctrine was also based upon theirs, as it was and is far more developed than anybody else's, so there is another reason to use similar, including similar-sized, equipment.

Gentlemen, since you seem to believe the utility version of the S-92 would be a poor choice of replacement for the Griffon (even though it has a faster speed

That is not always relevant, at least in a tactical situation. Do LAVS and Leopards always bomb around at max speed? The faster one goes in a low-level mission, the less manoeuvrable one is, and the more exposed one has to be. We could well be back to those tactics in the next major operation, depending upon threat and geography.

Also, hanging stuff off of the outside (door guns, other mission kits, and slung loads) reduces max speeds. Don't take the manufacturer's shiney sales brochures as practical gospel.

longer range

In a tactical situation, that may or may not be relevant either. It's only about 70 to 80 km from KAF to the furthest areas that we operate. Also, actual performance figures, with all of the variables, are not reflected in those fancy brochures. If it was all that simple, I wouldn't be paid what I am.

Here's another thing to ponder: The bigger and fatter a helicopter is, the fewer places it will fit. One big fat target is also more desireable than three or four small ones, from the opposition's viewpoint.

larger payload capacity

Less than Chinook, of which we shall soon have fifteen. We do not need another helicopter to compete with that.

what do you think the Griffon should be replaced with? Or do you believe it overhauled and upgraded instead?

As previously stated.

p.s. Good call popnfresh! I do jump out of airplanes

And sometime in the not too distant future, you may be sitting in the back of a CH146 and notice a patch on the back of a frontseater's electric hat that says Loachman on it.

I promise to do my best not to criticize your exit technique and suggest improvements.

 

[Jammer]

Somehow I knew this topic would tear all the rotorheads away from their suds...

 

[Loachman]

When I left Kandahar a few months ago, a good deal of the CLP overwatches were still being done by OH-58Ds, even though CHFA was declared OPRED in Jan to do this which from what I understood at the time was to be it's primary job.

We were on the same Roto.

I have no idea where you were employed, but I was in a fairly good position to see what was up, where it was, and what it was doing.

Our stuff wasn't there to replace anything, but to add overall capability.

There are still differences in capabilities and operating techniques between the two platforms, their sensors and weapons, and their crews - and experience levels. We are still developing.

 

[Jammer]

That's the info that made it down to us schmucks at SPGG.
Nice to see you guys once in a while though...It got lonely sometimes and Thursday nights were pretty dodgy living with the ANA

 

[Loachman]

That's the info that made it down to us schmucks at SPGG.
Nice to see you guys once in a while though...It got lonely sometimes and Thursday nights were pretty dodgy living with the ANA

You wouldn't have seen me. I was sitting in a box in KAF, and usually at night. You might have heard an occasional irritating whiny noise from three to five thousand feet above - my "virtual" presence.

 

[Jammer]

I think I mooned you one night...bored and couldn't sleep.

 

[Loachman]

I think I mooned you one night...bored and couldn't sleep.

Must have been one of the other crews.

I did spend far too long watching farmers have midnight dumps in their fields because ISTAR guys thought that was suspicious activity though...

 

[GAP]

That's the info that made it down to us schmucks at SPGG.
Nice to see you guys once in a while though...It got lonely sometimes and Thursday nights were pretty dodgy living with the ANA

What? You didn't follow the maxim of "When in Rome......"?  ;D

 

[Jammer]

I can understand how a big steamer in an open field at night nowhere close to a road might be misconstrued. One of my guys using ITASS was famous for that.

 

[Good2Golf]

Must have been one of the other crews.

I did spend far too long watching farmers have midnight dumps in their fields because ISTAR guys thought that was suspicious activity though...

...ahhh, so you saw the glowing left hand after the event on thermal?