CFB Cold Lake Thread- Merged

[George Wallace]

DND would be wise to get out of the housing business - leave that to professional investors and landlords. Pay people a reasonable PLD if the market requires it, and review rates often. Stop trying to pretend that we can actually get it right with PMQ's.

DND got out of the housing business a long time ago.  That is how CFHA got started.  It was DND's way of privatizing its PMQs as a cost saving measure.  Prior to CFHA taking over, all maintenance and repairs to the PMQs were done by CE.

 

[armyvern]

DND would be wise to get out of the housing business - leave that to professional investors and landlords. Pay people a reasonable PLD if the market requires it, and review rates often. Stop trying to pretend that we can actually get it right with PMQ's.

Exactly; sorting out PLD being a key requirement.

 

[PuckChaser]

Exactly; sorting out PLD being a key requirement.

I think our control over PLD is extremely limited, and TBS being the giant, slow-moving bureaucracy it is, leaves our members posted near the oilpatch screwed. Cost of living moves faster than a going-on 5 year freeze of PLD.

Hence, we get the mess we're in now.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

DND got out of the housing business a long time ago.  That is how CFHA got started.  It was DND's way of privatizing its PMQs as a cost saving measure.  Prior to CFHA taking over, all maintenance and repairs to the PMQs were done by CE.

Sadly, the Army is still on the hook for the upkeep and maintenance of the infrastructure - roads, sewers, sidewalks etc.  That means that money for sewers and drains competes with money for operational buildings, Ranges and Training Areas etc.  We need to get completely out of the business.  Our corps business is the production, sustainment and employment of lethal combat power.  Being in the running for "Canada's Worst Landlord" detracts from that focus.

As an aside, I live in a PMQ in Edmonton (and own a house in Ottawa that I rent out).  The Q's are adequate, and I consider them to be fair market value.  I have a 4 bedroom house with a big yard for about $1385 a month.  I rent out my comparable (albeit newer and better finished) house in Ottawa for $1350 a month (which is lower than market value - I like my tenant!)

 

[Quirky]

Exactly; sorting out PLD being a key requirement.

I believe that sorting out the PMQ costs would be more important. Drastically lowering the PMQ rent would give families and smart, single men and women, the opportunity to save up enough money for a down-payment on property in town. Raising PLD a few hundred bux a month won't do squat.

 

[armyvern]

I believe that sorting out the PMQ costs would be more important. Drastically lowering the PMQ rent would give families and smart, single men and women, the opportunity to save up enough money for a down-payment on property in town. Raising PLD a few hundred bux a month won't do squat.

Smart men and women will buy houses eventually (if they really want to own - some don't).

I grew up in the army of the 90s; was a Pte living in a Q with 2 kids in those times when food banks were de rigeur.  I own a house (a couple of them now). I never went to a food bank.  Our pay was frozen for years and was well below the national average back then.  PLD didn't exist.  How did I ever mange to do it??

Troops today get awesome pay and benefits; some get PLD (however screwed up that system is).  No pay freeze is in effect (we only got pay raises with actual promotions/all incentives were frozen).  I managed to save up, why exactly can't they?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I believe that sorting out the PMQ costs would be more important. Drastically lowering the PMQ rent would give families and smart, single men and women, the opportunity to save up enough money for a down-payment on property in town. Raising PLD a few hundred bux a month won't do squat.

Troops with 4 years in get 60K+ salaries.  The taxpayer has done their bit, by paying us very well - indeed quite above the national average.  How about we man up, manage our own affairs (just like the taxpayers that pay us) and save to buy a house just like everyone else.

I will say it again.  We are not that special, and need to get over ourselves.

 

[McG]

I found the solution to PMQ costs in Cold Lake.  Truck in a few even older homes from Edmonton:  http://globalnews.ca/news/1091160/future-of-century-old-garneau-homes-up-in-the-air/
Aside from shipping and installation, they are free.

[Caveat: This post was made in sarcasm]

 

[Occam]

Troops with 4 years in get 60K+ salaries.  The taxpayer has done their bit, by paying us very well - indeed quite above the national average.  How about we man up, manage our own affairs (just like the taxpayers that pay us) and save to buy a house just like everyone else.

I will say it again.  We are not that special, and need to get over ourselves.

Yes, troops with 4 years in get 60K+ salaries.  The fact is that the area around Cold Lake is swamped with people earning $100K+ incomes, and the cost of everyday living is rising to meet the higher average salary.  The problem is that CF pay and benefits (specifically PLD) aren't reacting to that local change in cost of living.

The taxpayers are not playing from the same playbook that the CF is.  The taxpayers don't get moved around on a whim.  Taxpayers aren't forced with a decision between substandard housing at a standard price, or buying on the economy when nobody else in their right mind would purchase a home because they might have to sell it at a substantial loss.

Give this a read - http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/en/ombudsman-reports-stats-investigations-cold-lake/cold-lake-report.page.  Then let us know if you can still make the statement above. 

I sure am glad I don't ever have to worry about being posted there anymore.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Well, the fact that the PLD baseline is Ottawa demonstrate an intent that DND wants to make Ottawa cost of living a benchmark.  In my books, it means that after taxes, average housing fees (mortgage/rent, municipal taxes, heating, etc), food for an average family, daycare/school, gas, insurance, etc,  what's left in your pocket is at least the same as if you were posted to Ottawa.  Some postings will net you more, because cost of life is cheaper, but it should never be less than Ottawa.

Cold Lake, in that optic, is screwed up.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Yes, troops with 4 years in get 60K+ salaries.  The fact is that the area around Cold Lake is swamped with people earning $100K+ incomes, and the cost of everyday living is rising to meet the higher average salary.  The problem is that CF pay and benefits (specifically PLD) aren't reacting to that local change in cost of living.

The taxpayers are not playing from the same playbook that the CF is.  The taxpayers don't get moved around on a whim.  Taxpayers aren't forced with a decision between substandard housing at a standard price, or buying on the economy when nobody else in their right mind would purchase a home because they might have to sell it at a substantial loss.

Give this a read - http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/en/ombudsman-reports-stats-investigations-cold-lake/cold-lake-report.page.  Then let us know if you can still make the statement above. 

I sure am glad I don't ever have to worry about being posted there anymore.

My comments were in response to Quirky's suggestion that we provide low cost housing to all:

I believe that sorting out the PMQ costs would be more important. Drastically lowering the PMQ rent would give families and smart, single men and women, the opportunity to save up enough money for a down-payment on property in town. Raising PLD a few hundred bux a month won't do squat.

I believe that PLD is both the issue and the answer, as it addresses your point with respect to our requirement to move.  Hopefully we can make some progress there.  I know that the Dept is trying hard to get this file moving.

 

[Occam]

Seen.  Reducing the rents at the RHUs wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea as part of the solution - at least reducing them to a rate that's fair for the condition that they're in, for sure.  I agree with you - "low cost housing for all" just isn't realistic.  Sufficient numbers of fairly priced RHUs, in markets where buying on the economy isn't feasible for one reason or another, should be a minimum though.

 

[DAA]

I remember the days when PMQ Rents were standardized right across the country.  Rent for a 3 Bdrm Row House was based on your "rank" and regardless of where you were in Canada, the cost was the same.  When AAA (Accommodation Assistance Allowance) was around, it was based on not just the area you lived but also on both "Rank and Family Size" but the higher your rank, the more you received and the larger your family, the more you received again.

Then suddenly DND/CF decided it wanted/needed to get out of the Housing Business, created CFHA and moved to a "fair market value" model and AAA was replaced with a standardized rate for PLD based on area.

The only thing that makes me scratch my head about PLD, is the rationale behind a MSC receiving 150% of the rate (ie; 75% each), while a regular married member only gets 100% and the spouse probably doesn't have a job.

Oh well, back to the drawing board...

 

[Jarnhamar]

I called and it sounds like the CFHA isn't held to the same standards as civilian renters.  Maybe one step towards correcting the issue with PMQ housing is to hold them accountable to the Canadian Landlord Tenant Act.

 

[PuckChaser]

I called and it sounds like the CFHA isn't held to the same standards as civilian renters.  Maybe one step towards correcting the issue with PMQ housing is to hold them accountable to the Canadian Landlord Tenant Act.

I believe the first excuse we'd hear is that each province is responsible for Landlord/Tenant policies, and they may vary, and having different standards for each province CFHA has housing in would be "too difficult".  I'm in agreement with you though, the only option to fix substandard housing is to move out, which is not a solution.

 

[Strike]

I believe the first excuse we'd hear is that each province is responsible for Landlord/Tenant policies, and they may vary, and having different standards for each province CFHA has housing in would be "too difficult".  I'm in agreement with you though, the only option to fix substandard housing is to move out, which is not a solution.

So...if CFHA doesn't follow the provincial landlord/tenant policies (I didn't know this btw), does that mean that one could withhold payment for services (ie - rent) if those services (maintenance of the property for example) have not been carried out to a satisfactory level?  :stirpot:  I'm just thinking about how many times I've heard complaints about windows, plumbing, flooding, etc.  It would seem hypocritical in such a case to not have to follow such an act but then expect your tenants to do so.

*** I am not advocating that people stop paying rent because of lack of adequate services.  Just thinking out loud.

 

[GAP]

So...if CFHA doesn't follow the provincial landlord/tenant policies (I didn't know this btw), does that mean that one could withhold payment for services (ie - rent) if those services (maintenance of the property for example) have not been carried out to a satisfactory level?  :stirpot:  I'm just thinking about how many times I've heard complaints about windows, plumbing, flooding, etc.  It would seem hypocritical in such a case to not have to follow such an act but then expect your tenants to do so.

*** I am not advocating that people stop paying rent because of lack of adequate services.  Just thinking out loud.

There was an excellent explanation in the previous housing thread that distinguished the differences between what the federal gov is responsible for and what it is not vs the provincal landlord/tennant policies....can't find it right now.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So...if CFHA doesn't follow the provincial landlord/tenant policies (I didn't know this btw), does that mean that one could withhold payment for services (ie - rent) if those services (maintenance of the property for example) have not been carried out to a satisfactory level?  :stirpot:

Good question  :nod:    When I called the man I spoke with said he didn't think they did but asked me to call Monday for a better answer so I'm calling back.

From the articles I'm reading it says that the CF chain of command etc.. has pretty much no say over anything that goes on with the CFHA but the CFHA can involve a members chain of command pretty quickly if they're mad about something.

 

[McG]

Then suddenly DND/CF decided ...

Neither DND nor the CF decided anything in this case.  TB ordered that rent would be based on market rate.
Rental cost of any government building cannot under-cut local market rates.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It's not like the PMQs are older and not actually worth "fair market value", so it's a fair deal.  >