CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter

[MarkOttawa]

Any chance of such an upgrade for RCAF CF-18s (and used RAAF Hornets)?

Raytheon to equip classic Hornet with upgraded radar

Raytheon will equip the U.S. Marine Corps' classic Hornet fleet with an upgraded APG-79(v)4 AESA radar system.

Raython plans to begin delivering the system in 2021 and finish deliveries by 2022 for the Hornet fleet. No specified contract amount was listed in a news release Tuesday announcing the selection by the Marines.

The system is a scaled version of the APG-79 AESA radar, which is integrated on the U.S. Navy and Royal Australian Air Force's Super Hornets and EA-18G Growlers.

"With AESA radars, fighter jet pilots and crews tip the scales in their favor over their adversaries," Eric Ditmars, vice president of Raytheon Secure Sensor Solutions, said in a statement. "Now that the APG-79(v)4 is slated to fly on the classic Hornet, Marine Corps pilots will be able to identify, track and engage more targets over a greater distance than ever before."

Ditmars said the system will provide improved targeting capabilities for air dominance, maritime strike and air-to-surface missions.

In addition, the company is touting reduced maintenance hours while increasing availability for flight.

Because the APG-79(v)4 shares more than 90 percent commonality with the APG-79, the company said the Marine Corps will benefit from the "same global sustainment and upgrade path already in place for the system."

With the radar beam to be steered at nearly the speed of light, the system gives near real-time results.

Raytheon, which is headquartered in Waltham, Mass., also supplies the F/A-18E/F aircraft with several other systems, including laser-guided weapons, the company said.
https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2019/01/15/Raytheon-to-equip-classic-Hornet-with-upgraded-radar/7711547564777/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[dapaterson]

The first RAAF F-18s have arrived at Cold Lake.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2019/02/first-interim-fighter-jets-arrive-in-cold-lake.html

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The comments on the CAF page announcing this are illustrative of what people think of this.

 

[OldSolduer]

The comments on the CAF page announcing this are illustrative of what people think of this.

Here’s mine:

We’ve gone full retard.

 

[dimsum]

The comments on the CAF page announcing this are illustrative of what people think of this.

I feel for the poor PAO who had to spin that into something positive.

 

[OldSolduer]

I feel for the poor PAO who had to spin that into something positive.

A highly challenging task no doubt.  That poor Captain.....

 

[OceanBonfire]

The first RAAF F-18s have arrived at Cold Lake.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2019/02/first-interim-fighter-jets-arrive-in-cold-lake.html

And the modifications:

https://www.facebook.com/CanadianForces/posts/2485828274977693

 

[Rifleman62]

Pending PBO Report on 28 Feb 19

https://www.pbo-dpb.gc.ca/en/blog/news/Interim_F_18_aircraft

Fiscal Analysis of the Interim F-18 Aircraft

28 February 2019 - Posted by: Yves Giroux - Posted in: Upcoming Reports

 

[The Bread Guy]

This just out from the Office of Parliamentary Budget Officer...

Summary

This report provides an independent estimate of the impact of the costs of Canada’s procurement of 18 Australian F/A-18 aircraft on the federal budget. This estimate is for a total life cycle cost, thus taking into consideration the total cost of project development, acquisition, operations and sustainment, and disposal of the additional aircraft.

The findings of this report are as follows: the risk-adjusted life cycle cost estimate of the Interim Fighter Capability Project is approximately $1.09 billion, with a low-end estimate of $1.08 billion and a high-end estimate of $1.15 billion. Breaking this down into the project’s phases, PBO has estimated a Development phase cost of $12.5 million, an Acquisition phase cost of $311.5 million, an Operations and Sustainment phase cost of $756.5 million, and a Disposal phase cost of $11 million.

The total estimated life cycle cost of 1.09 billion is some 22% higher than the Department of National Defence (DND) estimate.  This is largely driven by costs in the operations and sustainment phase, where the PBO has estimated life extension and upgrade costs that are approximately $120M higher than DND’s.

Sensitivity analysis surrounding changes in planned flying rates show that the total project life cycle cost estimate can vary by as much as $55.5 million. A delay in the completion of the acquisition phase by one year, such that deliveries of six aircraft slip into the 2022-2023 fiscal year, would increase total project costs by $12.5 million.

More @ link & attachment

 

[NavyShooter]

Sooo...$1.15 Billion is $64Million per airframe....and the US is trying to get the flyaway on the F-35 down to $85 Million????

 

[Quirky]

Sooo...$1.15 Billion is $64Million per airframe....and the US is trying to get the flyaway on the F-35 down to $85 Million????

When you factor in costs to retrofit a single aircraft at L3, $64mil sounds about right. The engines were not included in the deal either, so we have to find 20 somewhere in the system - assuming they keep 10 in a flyable state. If remember correctly, that means if an engine comes out for rebuild, there won’t enough spares. That aircraft will sit until it’s fixed or they’ll have to rob. It’s going to suck being a hornet maintainer for the next 10 years.

 

[dapaterson]

Sooo...$1.15 Billion is $64Million per airframe....and the US is trying to get the flyaway on the F-35 down to $85 Million????

That $1.15B figure includes operating costs - fuel & maintenance for the estimated life.  It's not a purchase price, or even purchase plus refit.  It's purchase plus refit plus operating plus disposal at the end of life.

(Plus, the $1.15B is CAD and the $85M is USD).

 

[MarkOttawa]

And that is a hell of a silly way to cost procurements since many of those operating costs etc. are going to exist (at differing levels) for any plane or ship we buy.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[dapaterson]

And that is a hell of a silly way to cost procurements since many of those operating costs etc. are going to exist (at differing levels) for any plane or ship we buy.

Mark
Ottawa

But the PBO didn't cost the procurement - they costed the lifecycle.  Which is important - otherwise you buy cheap up front, and pay more lifecycle.  Done well, you can avoid (or at least identify in advance) pressure points for money in outyears; otherwise, you're in constant reaction mode.

Interestingly enough, if you add the contingency funding DND has identified that the PBO excluded in their comparison, their figures are remarkably similar...

 

[The Bread Guy]

And, for the record, this from the DND info-machine ...

Statement in response to the Parliamentary Budget Officer’s Fiscal Analysis of the Interim F-18 Aircraft
From: National Defence

Statement

The Department of National Defence (DND) welcomes the Parliamentary Budget Officer’s Fiscal Analysis of the Interim F-18 Aircraft; we have a good relationship with this office, and value their work.

Overall, our costing is extremely close to that of the PBO on the majority of line items, including the acquisition of the F-18s, infrastructure, and conversion to the CF-18 configuration. The difference in the final total is largely attributable to two factors:

    First, as noted in the report itself, the PBO did not include our contingency in their calculations of “DND numbers.”
    And second, the PBO figures for upgrades of the interim fighter fleet include estimates for CF-18 combat upgrades; we are still producing options for these upgrades.

DND’s methodology for full costing has been developed over the last several years and validated in the development of the Strong, Secure, Engaged defence policy. While we are confident that our methodology is sound, we will continue to work with the PBO, the Auditor General of Canada, and other outside entities as part of our commitment to responsible use of taxpayer dollars.

The first two interim aircraft arrived in Cold Lake on February 16, and modifications have already begun to Canadianize them. We look forward to unveiling them in RCAF colours and ready for their first Canadian mission in the coming months.

 

[Loachman]

I am guessing that, for each one of these machines purchased and brought up to our standard at great cost, one of our existing machines, already in that state, will be pushed into a hangar and stored, there being no more Pilots and Techs than there were prior to this purchase.

 

[RDBZ]

I am guessing that, for each one of these machines purchased and brought up to our standard at great cost, one of our existing machines, already in that state, will be pushed into a hangar and stored, there being no more Pilots and Techs than there were prior to this purchase.

Wasn't that the the aim of the purchase; to acquire airframes with significantly fewer fight hours to provide flexibility in managing the fleet until eventual replacement?

I'd be surprised if the cost was "great" though. Conversion seems to be limited to things like changing the seat harness, installing an exterior light, removing a high frequency radio, and reloading software (the RAAF had integrated weapons like AGM-158 JASSM, AIM-132, and JDAM-ER which the RCAF doesn't have in inventory).

 

[Downhiller229]

Wasn't that the the aim of the purchase; to acquire airframes with significantly fewer fight hours to provide flexibility in managing the fleet until eventual replacement?

I'd be surprised if the cost was "great" though. Conversion seems to be limited to things like changing the seat harness, installing an exterior light, removing a high frequency radio, and reloading software (the RAAF had integrated weapons like AGM-158 JASSM, AIM-132, and JDAM-ER which the RCAF doesn't have in inventory).

Seat harness? try complete ejection seat system.

Exterior light? try two engines and generators

Software? Try replacing all the displays and hoping our software works with it.


It is ridiculous and costly. Plus those things need corrosion studies done to see how much life are left in them

 

[RDBZ]

Seat harness? try complete ejection seat system.

Exterior light? try two engines and generators

Software? Try replacing all the displays and hoping our software works with it.


It is ridiculous and costly. Plus those things need corrosion studies done to see how much life are left in them

So Canada fitted ejection seats and engines that were different than other F-18 operators?  RAAF seats differ from USN only in terms of the harness.

"Canada’s CF-18s are of a similar configuration to those of the RAAF, having undergone an extensive upgrade in the late 1990s and early 2000s to a configuration similar to that of Australia’s multi-phased AIR 5375 Hornet Upgrade Program (HUG). Canadian CF-18s are fitted with a spotlight on the forward port fuselage, and there are minor differences in the weapons carried and in operational flight program software."

http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/raaf-hornet-sale-to-canada-finalised-report/

 

[Downhiller229]

So Canada fitted ejection seats and engines that were different than other F-18 operators?  RAAF seats differ from USN only in terms of the harness.

"Canada’s CF-18s are of a similar configuration to those of the RAAF, having undergone an extensive upgrade in the late 1990s and early 2000s to a configuration similar to that of Australia’s multi-phased AIR 5375 Hornet Upgrade Program (HUG). Canadian CF-18s are fitted with a spotlight on the forward port fuselage, and there are minor differences in the weapons carried and in operational flight program software."

http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/raaf-hornet-sale-to-canada-finalised-report/

we didn’t buy the engines from the Aussies, they will be pulled and shipped back. We will need to find some to use those jets as we have very few spares.

The seat isn’t the same one we use. We will need to buy more.