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CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter

Fully agree, but that is our track record on subject and you can bet US pressure is there again. The difference of course is there is no real domestic fighter aircraft industry at risk, but a lot of subcontractor work is.
 
With the exception here, that if the US pressure is for the F-35 over SH, it would tend to align with Canadian interests, both economically and militarily.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Actually, if sending the Air Force to Europe is our answer to help front line Eastern European nations for NATO, then stealth becomes an important asset, and the best beast for the job becomes the F-35, with F-15 second best.
But then, are we buying fighters for A job/task (in this case, REFORGER-East), or fighters for POTENTIAL tasks (which would include REFORGER-East and other stuff)?
 
milnews.ca said:
But then, are we buying fighters for A job/task (in this case, REFORGER-East), or fighters for POTENTIAL tasks (which would include REFORGER-East and other stuff)?

Why not both?

If we are suppose to be protecting North American Air Space, who really hast he capability of threatening us, all the way across the Atlantic and Pacific? Other first world nations (Russia, China obviously, but in 30 years, who know, Italy?)

Do you want 4th gen SHs or 5th Gen F-35 with stealth protecting our air space?
 
Either way Milnews , the F-35's stealth capability would now come into play. Those that have argued against the F-35 for Canada have almost always used the fact that for what we could expect to do - which did not include fighting for East Europe at that time (and in their sub-text, only included NORAD), you did not need stealth, and stealth was really the only advantage of the F-35 (in their eyes, as the capacity for data fusion and situational awareness in the future battlefield appeared irrelevant to them) over other current fighters.

If Eastern Europe is in the picture now, it  adds this requirement and make the F-35 the choice, IMHO.
 
But then high end assets can do low end tasks....

But then are we spending high end dollars on low end tasks when we could accomplish the tasks with low end dollars.

stunt-plane-smoke.jpg
 
Chris: Haven't we crashed enough Aerobatics Team pilots lately - Why do you want to add to their misery with another one  ;D
 
Buy the best aircraft available for the worst case scenario, that is capable of lower intensity stuff. Should be the same way with our ships and tanks. Unfortunately when that's not done, and that worst case scenario that arrives, it's not the Prime Minister or his cabinet living with the consequences of their short sightedness.
 
Loachman said:
Your second clause is based upon what experience or reference(s)?

Those currently flying F35s qualified without one. Have you seen any comments from any one of them regarding any impairment of their learning curve as a result?

Were dual-cockpit training fighters actually required in this age of simulation, there would be a dual-cockpit F35. There is not, nor will there be.

Progress marches on.

And it will march past Super Hornet and all other contenders much more quickly than it will F35, and leave them all in its dust.

I new someone was going to bring up how current F35 pilots are flying by themselves, and also that simulation is available. Those currently flying the F35 are high hour fully trained pilots on other fighters who also used the F35 simulator to practice before flying the jet. These are NOT brand new entry level just out of basic fighter pilot training. If I am wrong please provide information other wise.

The question of whether the F35 should have dual Cockpit for student training purpose was objected to by the manufacturer. They insisted that simulation would cover the skills needed to fly the F35. Quietly mentioned that other fighter experience would supplement the training process.

Its funny because the US will never be a one model Jet only force. they will always have a couple of different front line platforms, along with a few models of lead in prop and jet trainers for their pilots. One nice thing about their Talon training aircraft is they have been able to modify their flight system to simulate flying other aircraft. Which helps with training and cuts down on cost of flying front line aircraft.

Unless Canada is going to soley rely on simulation to flight qualify our New Jet Pilots, I think we also need to maintain a small fleet of twin seat advanced Jets.

No one is expecting a Brand new Pilot to fly a F35 straight out of Pilot training school, nor are they expecting a junior pilot to be able to fly and utilize the F35 and its capabilities. The F35 is a advanced jet. Such requires more then entry level Pilots to effectively fly and operate it.

One big question for many smaller countries who maintain small fleets and want a sole platform to supply their fighter needs, is training. Cost of training new pilots on a expensive platform.
Be as it will, times are changing and simulators are being used to train every pilot, but the gaps for simulation and real life are noticeable but not talked about. The consequences of real verses simulation are even more so.

The question is, if we go to the F35 as a sole replacement for the CF18, will training on the HAWK be sufficent with F35 simulator training to provide the skill level to fly the F35 with out instructor pilot help in the back seat.
Or will we be scrambling at the last minute to buy a fleet of two seat model advanced jets to provide a lead in training fleet after there is no money. Or will we have to rely on the US for entry level advanced fighter jet training, or will we have a high loss of aircraft due to pilot error due to lack of training.


 
Altair said:
Man, I drive an lsvw, don't talk to me about inferior vehicles. The Saab Gripen ng is a lot nicer than a lsvw ever was.

Nice summary of your credibility (based on experience) on air operations topics, specifically fighters.  Will you stop going on about things you aren't even at the level of 'amateur' yet now?  Specifically, fighters?

Although I am not part of the fighter community, I do have some experience working along side them and in the same battle space.  I offered the following as examples of things that should be considered, from a generic air ops "folks who operate flying thingies in hostile places" perspective.  Then think about that stuff when you think about your Saab fighter.  What is its combat record to date?

Eye In The Sky said:
What are the things that should be considered IMO?

Example #1  Surface to air threats

Example #2  Air to air threats

Example #3  The modern battlespace

How is your Gripen kitted out to defeat/survive against the SA-21?  What about the system that will replace the '21?  Just one example question for you to chase down.

So I'm very sorry if I don't take you seriously when you make it sound like these 4.5 Gen aircraft are pieces of junk. Is the f35 a good aircraft ? I'm sure it will be. I don't think it's worth the damn price. Our forces run on less than 1 percent of the gdp, I'd I can find savings anywhere to help preserve capabilities elsewhere I sure as hell use it. So screw off with I'm in the wrong profession. Go pound sand.

Words from, as you indicated, an LSVW driver. 

It's funny, the fighter or other air ops community guys don't seem to stray into the LSVW replacement thread to offer their uninformed opinion as they've never driven an LSVW...even though they drive cars.  I don't take your opinion on anything Air Ops seriously, and I'm not sorry about that.  You are making guesses and opinions based on what you perceive as bang for the buck, when you have no idea what the 'bang' even is. 

But, hey, its not like an actual SME within the fighter community, who is an expert on the "bang" is giving you/us an informed opinion.  Oh...wait...

SupersonicMax said:
Key word: you like.  You have no real substantiation other than glossy brochure from the manufacturer.  The SH, while I am not a fan of the aircraft as a replacement for our fleet, has the most potential in terms of upgradability and would be my pick (between the 3 options) IF we absolutely exclude the JSF

If we could open up the competition, I'd go with some F-15E variants (not the Silent Eagle, but the F-15E airframe with custom, but US made, sensors).

Gear back, get back in your lane and try to learn from 'those that do'.  :2c:
 
For those of air ops types, the media loves to say the cross over from the hornet to the super hornet would be low cost due to commonalities. How much is actually common? it's bigger, which means it weighs more, different engines, landing gear, etc... Sounds more like the annoyances of operating a mixed tank fleet of Leopard C2's, Leopard 2 A4's Leopard 2A4M's and Leopard 2A6M's, logistical challenges sky rocketing due to each model requiring it's own line of parts that do not work with the other lines.
 
MilEME09 said:
For those of air ops types, the media loves to say the cross over from the hornet to the super hornet would be low cost due to commonalities. How much is actually common?

Well, from wiki:

"The Hornet and Super Hornet share many characteristics, including avionics, ejection seats, radar, armament, mission computer software, and maintenance/operating procedures.[5] The Super Hornet is largely a new aircraft at about 20% larger, 7,000 lb (3,200 kg) heavier empty weight, and 15,000 lb (6,800 kg) heavier maximum weight than the original Hornet. The Super Hornet carries 33% more internal fuel, increasing mission range by 41% and endurance by 50% over the "Legacy" Hornet."

It's different enough that for catapult launches and stuff, its call-sign is "Rhino" instead of "Hornet".  It's also a lot louder than the legacy Hornet.
 
MilEME09 said:
For those of air ops types, the media loves to say the cross over from the hornet to the super hornet would be low cost due to commonalities. How much is actually common? it's bigger, which means it weighs more, different engines, landing gear, etc... Sounds more like the annoyances of operating a mixed tank fleet of Leopard C2's, Leopard 2 A4's Leopard 2A4M's and Leopard 2A6M's, logistical challenges sky rocketing due to each model requiring it's own line of parts that do not work with the other lines.

I am no fighter guy, but as an Aurora guy we have a mixed fleet of Block 2 and Block 3 aircraft.  Maintaining the parts for each..costs money.  YFR spent flying on B2 is time you aren't maintaining currency and developing proficiency on B3.  Tech's have to maintain legacy systems (and tech skillsets) and maintain new systems (and develop new skillsets).  Even between the CP-140 and the CP-140M, it was treated unofficially as 2 'fleets' as far as I am concerned.  Even our annual exams were broken into "Block 2 only" "Block 3 only" and "dual qual'd types".  IMO, it was a shitshow I was happy to leave behind.  You might be prepped to go do an overland mission on B3 with a Backup that was B2.  Hit a snag with a hard wheels-up time and now all of a sudden you are on a B2 aircraft.  Operates fairly different in the back end. 

The 'aircraft' itself (engines, landing gear, etc) stayed the same, but the 'tactical' systems changed and changed dramatically.  As luck would have it, I was able to 'drop' my Block 2 qual and maintain only Block 3 and life is considerably easier to manage.  Maintaining dual qual's on a aircraft type is not the same as being able to drive a wheeled and tracked fleet, and if there are significant gaps in tech used on the tactical systems and avionics, it can be fairly hard to be proficient on one, let alone both.  You want that proficiency, vice currency because you never know when the SHTF factor will kick in.

SSM is the only person I know of on here that has flown both Hornet and Super Hornet;  is it possible to maintain qual on both at once?  :dunno:

 
Eye In The Sky said:
SSM is the only person I know of on here that has flown both aircraft;  is it possible to maintain qual on both at once?  :dunno:

Yes - Comox still has both. 
 
Eye In The Sky said:
I should have been more specific...I meant the Hornet and SH.  I was a dual qual Aurora button-monkey...wasn't much fun!

I don't know about present day, but I do know that during the beginning of the conversion to the SH by the US Navy that there were dual qualified instructors who were doing both legacy and Super Hornet instructing.

Given we'd probably be getting the E variant I believe that a lot of the training would be done via simulator given the majority of differences being system oriented.
 
Here are a few articles that address subjects discussed in this thread, for what they're worth:

Of note, the USAF has been pipelining 'green' pilots onto the F-22 since 2008 - a similar F-35 pipeline seems plausible.  After T-6 Texan II training, and T-38 Talon training, new students fly a few missions in the F-16 (initially 8 flights in 2008 [F-16.net article], but more recently, only 3 flights, as indicated in the 2013 DoD article below):

"Eight F-16 flights will be completed during the lead-in course before the students leave for Tyndall". 
http://www.f-16.net/f-22-news-article2725.html

"The training also includes three flights in an F-16 Fighting Falcon to prove could [sic] the pilots can withstand 9 G’s of gravitational force, land a fighter aircraft and complete aerial refueling". 
http://archive.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=120545

Below is another article that describes key differences between Legacy and Super Hornets, as described by a dual-qualified USN naval aviator:

https://fightersweep.com/5334/ask-fighter-pilot-hornet-vs-super-hornet/

 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Actually, if sending the Air Force to Europe is our answer to help front line Eastern European nations for NATO, then stealth becomes an important asset, and the best beast for the job becomes the F-35, with F-15 second best.

The abandonment of the Arrow and acquisition of Bomarc, then the widow maker, were all made as uninformed decisions, under a lot of American pressure, and definitely not as decisions made based on what was best for Canada or the Canadian armed forces.

Until the F-35 is combat ready in 2022 I'd say that isn't the case.
 
Reference the Saab Gripen.

According to Wikipedia, back in Nov 2012, a SwAF LCol stated that the current version (C/D) of the Gripen would be obsolete for air-to-air combat by 2020. Consequently, the Swedish government decided that they would buy 60 upgraded E/F variants.

To produce the Gripen E/F[/url], the Swedes are taking 60 older C/D models and upgrading for a cost $7.4 billion (USD). Besides the 60 Swedish aircraft being ordered, Brazil has also signed a deal for an initial order of 38 aircraft (28 Es and 8 dual seat Fs). Cost of the Brazilian order is put at 4.6 bn (USD) with initial deliveries starting 2019 and final delivery in 2024.

The first  Gripen-E just rolled out of the factory three weeks ago and is expected to commence its first test flight sometime later this year. Two other test aircraft are in various stages of assembly. IOC for the Swedish Gripen-Es is expected around 2021-2023, with them becoming fully operational two-three years later.  This link also gives information on all the new upgrades that are being incorporated into the new aircraft.

I'm guessing that because the Swedes and Brazilians are first inline to receive new aircraft, it would mean that if Canada did buy the Gripen E/F, we would be waiting until those two contracts were finished before we could receive our aircraft, which would be too late.
 
jmt18325 said:
Until the F-35 is combat ready in 2022 I'd say that isn't the case.

We are in 2016 (because, last year according to our PM, we were in 2015). 2022 is in only six years. To those of us with a bit of living under our belt, it's a blink of an eye. (don't think so? My sons were just born yesterday, or so it seems, and now they are off to university !!!).

If Canada was to permanently forward deploy an air group of some description in support of Eastern Europe NATO countries, just planning the required installation , making them available, moving every thing over and making the facility operational would likely take two to four years. That means within two or three years of the facility being operational, the F-35 would be available.

In the meantime, the current CF-18's would be up to the job. The SH, however, would not be capable of facing the threat likely to exist 15 or 20 years from now - but the F-35 would.
 
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