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CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter

Either one of your scenarios gets the government sued for billions. Look at Oshkosh. Where do those billions come from? Out of the total number of planes we can buy. Excluding the F35 from the get-go is stupid, and smacks of the fear that it would actual win, even if you removed the mandatory requirement for a Gen 5 aircraft. Altair, you may be happy with dooming the RCAF to have an inferior aircraft 20 years from now, but the rest of us are not. Even Boeing throws 2030 out there as a best before date, we'll be flying whatever we buy well into the 2050s. Maybe they can promise a Mega Advanced Super Hornet upgrade, that just slaps lipstick on a pig by then? Only cost us another couple billion.
 
estoguy said:
Bird_Gunner:  Sounds reasonable to me...

So what is with all the hand wringing then?  :facepalm:  Why do our governments feel this need to drag everything out?  Jesus, the current F-18 airframes are pretty much my age...  ::)

Because Politics has no longer been about serving the people for a long time, it's about creating your political legacy and keeping your self elected
 
PuckChaser said:
Either one of your scenarios gets the government sued for billions. Look at Oshkosh. Where do those billions come from? Out of the total number of planes we can buy. Excluding the F35 from the get-go is stupid, and smacks of the fear that it would actual win, even if you removed the mandatory requirement for a Gen 5 aircraft. Altair, you may be happy with dooming the RCAF to have an inferior aircraft 20 years from now, but the rest of us are not. Even Boeing throws 2030 out there as a best before date, we'll be flying whatever we buy well into the 2050s. Maybe they can promise a Mega Advanced Super Hornet upgrade, that just slaps lipstick on a pig by then? Only cost us another couple billion.
Why do I get the impression to you don't understand that I DO NOT WANT CANADA TO BUY THE STUPID SUPER HORNET. I don't know how else to make that clear. I do not want the liberals to buy the sucky stupid super  hornet.
 
Altair said:
Why do I get the impression to you don't understand that I DO NOT WANT CANADA TO BUY THE STUPID SUPER HORNET. I don't know how else to make that clear. I do not want the liberals to buy the sucky stupid super  hornet.

Oh c'mon Altair!  You know you wanna!    [:D
 
Chris Pook said:
Oh c'mon Altair!  You know you wanna!    [:D
No. In order of planes I want it would go Jas Gripen,  eurofighter, F35, rafale, then the stupid hornet.

I cannot stress it enough, I do not like the SH
 
A little more effort Altair and you will find yourself taking out a CPC membership.

 
Chris Pook said:
A little more effort Altair and you will find yourself taking out a CPC membership.
liberal one is cheaper.

That said, this is a thread about aircraft.

The actual thread for that sort of stuff is on lockdown.
 
Altair said:
No. In order of planes I want it would go Jas Gripen,  eurofighter, F35, rafale, then the stupid hornet.

I cannot stress it enough, I do not like the SH

Sam-I-am?

To quote the great philosopher, Dr. Seuss...  ;D
 
I am not sure what the problem is about. The Government did a bid a few years ago, (Liberals) they choose the F35 as the best next generation fighter for Canada. Then the next government (Conservatives) agreed until the reality that the F35 would not be ready for operation as promised, performance and ability was different from original specs. Conservative party had to reevaluate the reality of buying the F35 as it is not  operational on a scale or quality that would be effective as our front line air weapons platform. It will be many years past promise for it to be fully operational.
Conservatives scramble to figure out a new Platform. election time let the Liberals deal with it. Liberals realize we need a new Weapons platform as fast as possible for future planned missions supporting UN and NATO missions. The best quickest and most viable choice is the Super Hornet.
We already have Boeing Canada heavily entwined with our Force, the supply net work is already set up and the procedures already in place Plus the commonality with training and learning curve will be quicker and easier to attain with our partner south of the border.

The reality of buying a fighter from over seas although sees like a excellent idea on paper, in reality it has to many infrastructure, logistics and training issues that would make it cost, training and operational restrictive. When those operating the Eurofiighter, Jas Gripen, Rafale are having logistic issues with parts for their own platforms. Not to mention the actual flight serviceability  issues they are having with maintaining those aircraft.  Those issues multiply when you factor in the cost to build out logistics, support and training required, not only for the Pilots them selves but also the ground crews, supply and civilian 3rd plus line support Then add a ocean between and being at the bottom of the list for parts and support.
Its not as easy as one two three taa da we have a new fighter. The cost of infrastructure and support is enormous and has to be factored into any long term fighter system we plan on buying as a interm  means until the F35 or next Gen fighter is ready to go.
 
CTD said:
I am not sure what the problem is about. The Government did a bid a few years ago, (Liberals) they choose the F35 as the best next generation fighter for Canada. Then the next government (Conservatives) agreed until the reality that the F35 would not be ready for operation as promised, performance and ability was different from original specs. Conservative party had to reevaluate the reality of buying the F35 as it is not  operational on a scale or quality that would be effective as our front line air weapons platform. It will be many years past promise for it to be fully operational.
Conservatives scramble to figure out a new Platform. election time let the Liberals deal with it. Liberals realize we need a new Weapons platform as fast as possible for future planned missions supporting UN and NATO missions. The best quickest and most viable choice is the Super Hornet.
We already have Boeing Canada heavily entwined with our Force, the supply net work is already set up and the procedures already in place Plus the commonality with training and learning curve will be quicker and easier to attain with our partner south of the border.

The reality of buying a fighter from over seas although sees like a excellent idea on paper, in reality it has to many infrastructure, logistics and training issues that would make it cost, training and operational restrictive. When those operating the Eurofiighter, Jas Gripen, Rafale are having logistic issues with parts for their own platforms. Not to mention the actual flight serviceability  issues they are having with maintaining those aircraft.  Those issues multiply when you factor in the cost to build out logistics, support and training required, not only for the Pilots them selves but also the ground crews, supply and civilian 3rd plus line support Then add a ocean between and being at the bottom of the list for parts and support.
Its not as easy as one two three taa da we have a new fighter. The cost of infrastructure and support is enormous and has to be factored into any long term fighter system we plan on buying as a interm  means until the F35 or next Gen fighter is ready to go.
If the Brazilians can somehow manage it being even further from Northern Europe than we are, I cannot see why this hurdle is insurmountable. There would be an added cost, that's for sure, to get all of the aforementioned infrastructure built up, but looking at a jas Gripen for example, there are many factors that offset that.

Lower cost per unit, lower maintenance over the lifetime.

Saab has already said they would allow the fighters to be built in Canada, almost certainly to be built by bombardier, we can slap a big ole maple leaf on the side of the plane and we would be in control of our own supply chain. As far as I can tell, the Gripen uses a lot of the same armament that we have now.

Would there be some issues to contend with? Probably. But I see a heck of a lot more benifits.
 
Setting aside industrial regional benefits, aka porkbarreling, what makes the Gripen operationally better than American aircraft?
 
Ask all of the many countries that are buying it.
 
The countries that buy Grippen dont have the operational requirements the US has.Back to the F35,Lockheed is expanding its production line to build 200 ac a year by 2019,just in time for Canada's order to be filled. :D
 
Thailand, South Africa and Brazil are how we should model our NATO air force, clearly.

Also, 72 Gripen NG cost about $12.4B CAD for development and production, and before Bombardier charges us another couple billion to set up a one-off production line for them. Thats not including the crazy life cycle costs they tried to apply to F35 (haven't seen someone try it with SH yet).

For the math inclined, $172.2M CAD per Gripen NG based on Brazil's recent contact.
 
Loachman said:
Ask all of the many countries that are buying it.

Thailand
Hungary
Czech Republic
South Africa
Brazil

Big military super powers  ;D

Well Brazil is on their way to becoming a bigger military player but it will be a while yet.  Gripen exports are primarily targeted towards countries that can't otherwise afford world class military technology. 

One thing about the Swedes is they do tend to produce pretty good military kit so maybe we are underrating them a bit.  CV90 is an excellent IFV, Bofors, BvS10, Bv206, Excalibur Artillery Ammunition, RBS series of missiles, numerous Anti-tank weapons systems.  Sweden has a long list of combat equipment that's been exported with considerable succcess.

EDIT:  Not only has the gear been exported with success, it's also been proven to be very capable in combat.

The real risk of buying a plane like the Gripen is not being able to sustain it properly.  Lets face it, the Air Forces listed above hardly have the sort of commitments we have in Canada.  Would we be able to maintain the Gripens at a sufficient readiness state in terms of parts, maintenance, etc that we can actually use them when necessary or will they just end up being a bunch of really pretty hangar queens?
 
Returning to answer this:

Humphrey Bogart said:

The person who posted the original comments on their FB page has had their comments picked up by Matthew Fisher for his commentary:


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Matthew Fisher: Buying Super Hornets, not F-35s, will saddle air force with ‘the wrong aircraft forever'
National Post
Matthew Fisher
Tuesday, Jun. 7, 2016

A recently retired senior air force officer says he knows of no emergency that would require Ottawa to buy Super Hornets as a stopgap.


“This gives Canada the wrong aircraft forever, or certainly for the next generation,” says the veteran who spent decades flying fighter jets.

“The fact is that there is no urgent need to bolster the fighter force right now.”

By deciding to buy the Super Hornets without a competition, Ottawa is not waiting for the findings of a defence policy review that was supposed to seek input from Canadians about the country’s strategic needs and procurement priorities.

Even if new fighter jets were urgently needed, there is still time to hold an open and fair competition, says the former officer, who flew CF-18s and CF-104 Starfighters in the High Arctic and Europe before holding key staff positions.

If the F-35 won such a competition — and it has won every competition where other air forces have pitted it against the Super Hornet and older European fighters — the U.S. Air Force would be willing to slow its acquisition of F-35s to enable the Royal Canadian Air Force to jump the queue and get enough of them within three years to fill any alleged gap in Canada’s ability to defend the Arctic and assist NATO in a time of war.

The RCAF had told the government and a parliamentary committee  it could safely operate the current CF-18s until 2025 and meet all Canada’s obligations to NORAD and NATO with a $400-million life extension program the Conservative government approved.

fp0608_super_hornet.png


“I assess the situation as entirely political,” the retired officer said. “Nobody will even have this discussion a year from now.”

This is because with nearly 200 F-35s already flying and solutions being found for initial technical problems with the software and high-tech pilot’s helmet, “it is becoming more and more obvious every day that it is the best aircraft.”

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan suggested several months ago there would be an open competition to choose the next fighter. A few weeks ago, he indicated another shift in policy: the government would  fill “a capability gap” by seeking an interim solution and would make a final choice later on.

But the retired pilot said it was “disingenuous” of the government to hint that after buying Super Hornets it would buy another type of fighter jet at some point.

One of the reasons long cited by the Liberals for excluding the F-35 — also known as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) — was that it cost a lot more than the Super Hornet. That is no longer true because the JSF has dropped dramatically in price. Finland recently costed the Super Hornet at about $92 million each, compared to $85 million for the JSF, he said.

Repugnant, deceitful and dishonest are some of the milder words used by others in the defence community when asked to describe how the Liberals have handled the fighter jet file.

While much more polite, the former fighter pilot was highly critical of the government for leaving the defence of Canada for the next 40 years to an aircraft developed more than 40 years ago and rebuilt 20 years ago, instead of acquiring the cutting edge F-35, which has been designed to be invisible to enemy radar. That, he said, was a critical issue in the Far North, where other air forces, including Russia, will soon be flying only stealthy aircraft.

Debunking the myth that the twin-engine Super Hornet was a wiser choice for Canada’s vast north than the single-engine F-35, he noted engine technologies had greatly improved since Canada bought its CF-18s in the 1980s and jets seldom fly at low altitude any more, rendering them less vulnerable to bird strikes.

The U.S. has such confidence in the F-35s, they were the only jets being based in northern Alaska.

Ottawa has argued that by buying Super Hornets as a stopgap measure it would only be following Australia lead, but the retired pilot said, “there is no comparison to be made. That was a very different situation.”

Australia bought Super Hornets to fill a gap created by the retirement of its F-111 jets. But it had already decided to buy F-35s as its front-line fighter and had remained committed to that purchase.

“If you do get the Super Hornet in 2016 that would be an upgrade on our CF-18s. Nobody would argue with that,” the officer said. “But it is not going to be updated. The manufacturing process is shutting down and pretty soon the Super Hornet will be frozen in time.

“The F-35s will have parts and be maintained for five decades. The beauty of the F-35 is that 15 to 20 countries are getting it. Many of them will be working on better radars and more stealth.”

More on LINK.
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
Big military super powers  ;D 
Maybe.....just maybe.....we should accept that we're not  a super power; the civilian population doesn't care, and the governments (of all parties) don't really like it (ok, for bragging rights and photo ops, yes... but not for actual commitments).

We have a lot of real estate to patrol, but so does Brazil and South Africa.  The major  risk I currently see is being perceived by the US (our security umbrella) as being ineffective at North American defence. 

Of course, beyond that, any informed decision would require an actual Security, Defence, Foreign Policy review to set the stage.  Mind you, beyond the current estimate-situating, public consultation "Defence Policy Review," such a White Paper may provide the government with uncomfortable facts -- like maybe even the F35 being the best option for our needs. 

We may never know.  :dunno:
 
Journeyman said:
Maybe.....just maybe.....we should accept that we're not  a super power; the civilian population doesn't care, and the governments (of all parties) don't really like it (ok, for bragging rights and photo ops, yes... but not for actual commitments).

We have a lot of real estate to patrol, but so does Brazil and South Africa.  The major  risk I currently see is being perceived by the US (our security umbrella) as being ineffective at North American defence. 

Of course, beyond that, any informed decision would require an actual Security, Defence, Foreign Policy review to set the stage.  Mind you, beyond the current estimate-situating, public consultation "Defence Policy Review," such a White Paper may provide the government with uncomfortable facts -- like maybe even the F35 being the best option for our needs. 

We may never know.  :dunno:

We are definitely not a superpower, the big difference between us and the Brazilians though is that we project our military power from time to time on a global scale.  None of those countries I listed above have participated in any sort of coalition of the willing halfway across the world.  South Africa is probably the closest with their participation in numerous African peacekeeping/peace enforcement missions.  They had four Gripens on standby at one point ready to support South African Paras in CAR who were under heavy attack from Anti-Seleka rebels back in 2013.

I agree with your assessment that the biggest strategic risk to us is the US perceiving us as weak.  I'm also worried that we will be caught with our pants down like we were in '06 when we sent a Battlegroup in to Southern Afghanistan that was ill-equipped to carry out its mandate. 
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
We are definitely not a superpower, the big difference between us and the Brazilians though is that we project our military power from time to time on a global scale.  None of those countries I listed above have participated in any sort of coalition of the willing halfway across the world.  South Africa is probably the closest with their participation in numerous African peacekeeping/peace enforcement missions.  They had four Gripens on standby at one point ready to support South African Paras in CAR who were under heavy attack from Anti-Seleka rebels back in 2013.

I agree with your assessment that the biggest strategic risk to us is the US perceiving us as weak.  I'm also worried that we will be caught with our pants down like we were in '06 when we sent a Battlegroup in to Southern Afghanistan that was ill-equipped to carry out its mandate.
Are you just ignoring Sweden?

They participated in libya and actually sent more aircraft there than Canada did.
 
I do agree that a big concern will be what the Americans think of us.  If they perceive us as being weaker or lacking capability, they may dictate more of what is done with North American air defence, and leave us out of the equation. If we really want to be a sovereign nation, we need to have the capability to be one.

If they are going to put this to real competition, they need to talk to Denmark about how they did theirs, as another poster in this forum suggested.

And this is a total aside... but an F-18 just flew over the south end of Barrie right over the school I'm supply teaching at. Not sure of exact altitude, but definitely under 10,000 feet. The tailfin I could see looked different from the usual Canadian grey ones I've seen.  It was black with a yellow strip along the top. Where would one like that herald from? 

It was flying north east.
 
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