CF-18 fighter jet crashes in northern Quebec - Pilot safe

[Inch]

Like my AF cohorts have alluded to, there is a multitude of reasons that one may eject. Thinking back to when I was flying the Harvard, we would have ejected for things like engine failures when we're unable to make it to a runway, engine fires that don't go out, control problems (ie inadvertent departure from controlled flight below a certain altitude), smoke in the cockpit, etc. There were probably close to 10 emergencies that ended with the line, LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE OR EJECT.

I've never flown a Hornet, but I know from flying the Harvard that if there's any doubt about effecting a safe recovery of the aircraft and you've got a functioning ejection seat, use it. You're worth more than the aircraft.

So until they get the HUD tapes, flight data recorder or a public statement of what happened from the pilot (which I doubt will happen prior to the flight safety report), any suggestions by the media or otherwise are pure speculation and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

As others have already said, I'm unimpressed with whichever officers immediately said the term "pilot inexperience" to the media.

I hope Hillier dresses down whoever made such a comment....




M. 

 

[mover1]

Good to hear the lad's safe and sound.

Right you are my boy! :

 

[bravo2]

Its amazing how fast, when a plane goes down, people point the finger at the easy target i.e. the Pilot !!!!  Inexperience, pushing the plane too hard. Can we wait for the inquiry there could be a multitude of other factors !?! Everything at this point his pure speculation....

 

[McG]

Forest fire from CF-18 crash doused
CanWest News Service
Thursday, August 18, 2005

QUEBEC - The Canadian Armed Forces used a waterbomber Wednesday to extinguish a forest fire that was burning for two days following the crash of a CF-18 fighter north of Saguenay, Que.

Even though the fire was under control following Tuesday's crash, the fire was only put out Wednesday night. That allowed Defence Department flight safety investigators to reach the plane, about 250 kilometres north of Quebec City. Capt. Colin Marks escaped the crash uninjured after ejecting from the plane.

Interesting that there would be official speculation before investigators could even go to the crash.

 

[jmacleod]

Col George Miller, as LCol leading 431 Squadron (The Snowbirds) on a Friday afternoon arrival and
smoke up over Moncton NB in 1972 had a bird strike which cut his aircraft power from 89% to
less than 40% instantly- Col Miller made an immediate emergency landing (he was directly over
the Moncton Airport at the tme) - aircraft also had a somewhat large dent in the leading edge
of the starboard mainplane. Among those who watched this from the tarmac was Col Ralph
Annis then Base Coimmander FTS Moose Jaw, and Major Phil Perry, director of maintenance for
the CF AF airshow group, commanded by Col OB Philip - Col Miller went on to command Moose
Jaw, the only CF pilot that flew in both the "Golden Hawk" and "Snowbird" teams as far as I know.
- an F-86 Golden Hawk had a major bird strike over Halifax Harbour NS, which demolished the
aircraft's canopy, temporarily blinded the pilot. S/L Ralph Annis flew along side the damaged
"Sword" and talked the pilot down to a successful landing at what was, HMCS Shearwater NS
- my opinion is that a bird strike caused the CF18A to go down - we shall see. MacLeod

 

[Infanteer]

You sure love to name drop, eh?

 

[jmacleod]

Canadian Forces did not use a Canadair Bombardier CL-415 Amphibious "Water Bomber" to
surpress the fire caused by the impact of the CF-18A Hornet. CF does not operate CL-415's
although their operation was discussed a couple of years ago. The aircraft came from the
Forest Protection Service of the Province of Quebec, which has operated the fire apprehension
and suppression aircraft for some years - they are very good at this compelling and dangerous
operational flying. MacLeod

 

[Infanteer]

...and your point is?

 

[Inch]

Canadian Forces did not use a Canadair Bombardier CL-415 Amphibious "Water Bomber" to
surpress the fire caused by the impact of the CF-18A Hornet. CF does not operate CL-415's
although their operation was discussed a couple of years ago. The aircraft came from the
Forest Protection Service of the Province of Quebec, which has operated the fire apprehension
and suppression aircraft for some years - they are very good at this compelling and dangerous
operational flying. MacLeod

I just reread that article and nowhere did it say a CF waterbomber, it said the CF used a waterbomber to put the fire out.

And how do you know that it was a CL-415? I didn't notice that the article specified. It could have been a CL-215, they still fly a few of those. Here's a link with some pictures of 215's taken as recently as May of this year.

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraftsearch=Canadair%20CL-215&distinct_entry=true

 

[jmacleod]

Actually, the CL415 (turbo) Water Bomber was clearly shown on the local French network TV
News - not too many (if any) CL 215's around - plan was to convert all of them in Quebec at
least to turbo - Ontario may have a CL-215 around, and possibly  France (doubtful) and Portugal
- I mention the aircraft because it was reported as a CF aircraft. We submitted a USP to DND
PW&GSW Canada "Airborne Patrols In The Atlantic Region" for use of the aircraft in the CF Air
Reserve,which received a good response from MND and senior AF personnel - bureaucrats in IC
and PW&GSW were supportive - Bombardier is their number one focus in Canada, goes back to
a decision that all OEM airframe capacity would be (and is) focused in Quebec - I know deHavilland
Toronto builds airframes (but they are owned by Bombardier). DND could not find the money, and
the Air Reserve is not where it could and should be. What do you think of the CF-18A (CF-188)
converted to replace the 431 Squadron fleet of CT-114 "Tutors" - illustrated on CASR DND 101
MacLeod

 

[Inch]

Alright, I didn't see the news article but the media is known for using stock footage when up to date footage isn't avail.

Now, when a CL-215 is upgraded with turbo props, they do not become CL-415s. They become CL-215Ts. The major difference between a CL-215T and a CL-415 is the EFIS cockpit. The CL-215Ts may have turbo props, but they're not upgraded to an EFIS cockpit.

 

[jmacleod]

Inch - you are right, the CL215 T is the designation by Canadair/Bombardier for the upgraded turbo
215, but it was for the most part an experimental aircraft. What FE's in Montreal found was that
the PWC turboprops created enormous torque loads causing very significant yaw on takeoff and
in the air, especially after a water dump, so a major mod required the redesign of the vertical
stabliizer - so the decision was made, why not a new model with all proposed upgrades right
on the production line; that aircraft is the CL415. For some interesting perspectives about a future
CF role for the CL415, go to CASR DND 101, where Editor Stephen Priestly is seeking opinions on
a number of military topics ranging from vehicles to aircraft. Talked with Bombardier two weeks ago
about their new S&R Model CL415, recently sold in Europe, and potential CF interest. What is
your opinion of a CF18A (CF188) modified as a replacement for the CT114 "Tutor" ? MacLeod

 

[Strike]

I can't see the CF ever getting into the water bomber business -- the private sector would go ape.  That is one reason why you don't see our helos flying around with bambi buckets fighting forest fires.  The private sector would have to be in a very bad situation before we would be allowed to participate.  So your point is moot.

 

[Sf2]

1)  CF will never get into the water bombing business - there's no reason to

2)

my opinion is that a bird strike caused the CF18A to go down

 
How the hell can you say that?  You know nothing about the mission profile, reported bird activity, even the nature of the crash.  Saying that is just as bad as what the base commander said about pushing the plane too hard.  Just because a few aircraft were destroyed by bird strikes in the past?  What about compressor stalls?  What about dual engine stalls?  What about fuel line ruptures?  What about flight control system malfuction?  Why don't you google those terms?

3)  Snowbirds will never go the the F18.  First, the world loves them because they're gracefull,precise,  pleasing to the eye, and QUIET.  The BA's show is loud, obnoxious, although still very impressive.  The CF would not be able to fund the enormous operating cost of a Hornet x 11 for a continental airshow tour.  What about the show techs?  You're going to take all the B models so they can ride along?  Or stuff them in an 8 pax van with a large double double?

 

[jmacleod]

What private sector companies are those in Canada - two that I can think of. Forest fire apprehension
and suppression are undertaken by Provincial government agencies for the most part, in NB, Quebec
Newfoundland, Ontario and BC. If CF could provide additional fire suppression support in the forest
fire season, no one will complain, and it is good additional skill development for CF Reserve personnel
-our concept is entirely focused on the CF Air Reserve Component. The fact is the concept remains
valid, and got considerable support - dumping water from a bucket slung under a helicopter just
does not do the trick. NB Forest Protection has a fleet of Air Tractor 802's (Air Tractor, Olney Texas
Leland Snow), but often are compelled to bring in Quebec or Newfoundland water bombers - the
idea is to surpress the fire as quickly as possible. The largest single contributor to Canada's GNP is
the forest sector - not much profit in a burned out forest. MacLeod

 

[Sf2]

it doesn't matter if its private sector or not - the capability exists PERIOD.  There's no need to re-direct resources to something that can easily be done by other agencies.  As far as reserve elements are concerned, they are already fully immersed in cockpits that we already have, and we're still short pilots.  There's no feasiblity in introducing a new aircraft, creating new sqns, both operational and training.  Train techs, create training syllabus and standards, take pilots away from helo/fighter/multi sqns when there's already a nice fleet/staff up in North Bay who's up for the challenge.

 

[jmacleod]

Those are good points on the CF18A.B as a replacement for the CT-114's (which will be replaced)
-our choice is the BAE Hawk (Hawks For The Snowbirds) - which makes sense, but appears not
to be a priority with DND CF at the moment. As far as the CF18 crash is concerned, my opinion
is that it was probably a bird strike, but certainly compressor stall, or any other major malfunction
-I agree that the Squadron Commander should not have speculated in a Public Forum, but the
main thing is Captain Marks (media reported "Marx") survived - as far as the use of the CL-415 by
DND is concerned, no one can say with certainty what future aircraft will be purchased for CF
inventories, but one thing we do know; there is a lot of pressure on IC and PW&GS Canada to
buy Canadian fixed wing aircraft wherever possible (and that ain't because of what you and I
think, thats because of politics). So when you say "never" - well never is a long time. When they
bought the F-5 (CF-5) some years ago, the CF AF wanted the McAir F-4. But they bought the
F-5 anyway. MacLeod

 

[Sf2]

do you know what a compressor stall is??

 

[jmacleod]

Why don't you define what a compressor stall is, and what effect it has on an aircraft in a
pitch-up position (or pitch-down) - MacLeod