CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

[Donald H]

I just love it when people pay gobs of money to lawyers to fight for a "principle". A true system of voluntary wealth transfer. Just make sure you get it up front. They get bitter when they lose, tend to strike out indiscriminately and not pay their final bill.

:stirpot:

Sometimes quite true! And other times progress is accomplished.

So if I was to try to predict the future my prediction would contain issues that the political left is fighting to accomplish as actually becoming common place. There's real meaning to the term 'progressives' that is so often used by the right in America in a derogatory sense. Here's a couple of examples:

The left fought for mandatory seatbelt laws while the right opposed them because it would infringe on people's freedoms. Now it's just taken for granted that it's batsh-t crazy to not wear them.

The left in Canada fought long and hard for universal health care and now it's the accepted norm for the entire first world, with just one exception. The right still oppose it openly in some cases but also covertly, because of the bat droppings issue attached.

Now as to how this pertains to predicting the future? I'll use climate change, global warming, and the move toward green energy as my prediction for the future.

But we shouldn't dwell entirely on that instance for predictions of the future. We can look at nearly any examples of fights that are supported by the left side of the political spectrum.

Can you think of some? How about Social Security, Employment Insurance, Socially responsible prison system, *a woman's right to abortion, Capital punishment, Protective measures against Covid-19 (and future viruses), gun control measures, and many more it seems.

Is this particular current fight by the anti-vaxxers being supported by the political right or the political left. The outcome could be indicative of the answer!

*my position is more nuanced than the MSM portrays it.

 

[shawn5o]

Shawn, the comments under that story, some Canadians and some American, are telling of the support these anti-vaxxers bats are receiving. Comments are always worth having a look at to see how the story is received. This story seems to justify the anti-vaxxers case, mostly due to hate for Trudeau.

Canadians or Americans? Some of both because Trudeau's politics would be more anti-Trump as opposed to pro-Trump.
Just my observation on how support for this lawsuit will play out.
Always interested in your perceptions on that?

Thanks Don

I didn't look at the comment section. Good eye BTW. All I can say is these anti-this and anti-that people are, to me, very stupid people. Having said that, some people cannot wear masks due to medical conditions. My wife was suffering from lung cancer (she's been free and clear about two weeks now) but her left lung was compromised and she can't wear a mask for long periods.

I recently posted that I have sympathy for the PM (rock and a hard place stuff) and I don't care for JT! 

 

[FJAG]

Donald H. I have no issues with progressives. I consider myself one of them while fiscally conservative. It's part of my centrist mentality.

On the other hand I don't consider anti-vaxxers to be progressives. I think that their philosophy, if you can call it that, runs across all lines and, quite frankly, I expect that many, if not most, of them are more likely part of the socially conservative side who object to anything that is perceived to infringe on their "right" to do as they please regardless of the consequences for society in general.

This thing is a movement that arose out of what was pretty much a fraud and which has taken on a life of it's own because of the noise it self-generates. I see nothing good coming down the road from this movement; just misery for many innocents along the way.

:cheers:

 

[RangerRay]

Based on the people I have come across who are anti-vaxxer, they run the gamut of right-wing bible-thumper or libertarian, to left-wing granola-crunching hippies who think vaccines are “un-natural”. Most tend to have attained some level of higher education which seems to make them more skeptical, oddly enough.

 

[Donald H]

Donald H. I have no issues with progressives. I consider myself one of them while fiscally conservative. It's part of my centrist mentality.

On the other hand I don't consider anti-vaxxers to be progressives. I think that their philosophy, if you can call it that, runs across all lines and, quite frankly, I expect that many, if not most, of them are more likely part of the socially conservative side who object to anything that is perceived to infringe on their "right" to do as they please regardless of the consequences for society in general.

This thing is a movement that arose out of what was pretty much a fraud and which has taken on a life of it's own because of the noise it self-generates. I see nothing good coming down the road from this movement; just misery for many innocents along the way.

:cheers:

I'm with you FJAG when you say that the anti-vaxxers are more socially conservatives. Just in case there was some ambiguity on what I said.

cheers from the left coast.

 

[kkwd]

The New Zealand election has been put off a month due to covid. They must have them at least every 3 years and times up this year. The PM says she won't change the date again. Any bets on covid being the deciding factor on that?

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-08-17-20-intl/h_dd246f2aea5f4fe2d2525ee50c62d9e8

 

[Donald H]

Well everybody must have been wondering by now, when would Biden pick up on the point that all the unrest in  the US is due to Trump's antics.

Except the virus of course that's not his fault, even though estimates are that 130,000 deaths could have been prevented had Trump not been so indecisive on taking action early on.

Trump's spinning that everything is Bidens's fault in Trump's America is wearing pretty thin.

That's my opinion to haul up the flagpole!

 

[QV]

Well everybody must have been wondering by now, when would Biden pick up on the point that all the unrest in  the US is due to Trump's antics.

Except the virus of course that's not his fault, even though estimates are that 130,000 deaths could have been prevented had Trump not been so indecisive on taking action early on.

Trump's spinning that everything is Bidens's fault in Trump's America is wearing pretty thin.

That's my opinion to haul up the flagpole!

Sometimes I find statements like this humorous.  I recall Trump was called a racist and it was quite scandalous when he closed the borders, but ok. Trump is stating everything wrong with ‘merica is the corrupt establishment’s fault.  Biden just happens to be a longtime member. 

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Except the virus of course that's not his fault, even though estimates are that 130,000 deaths could have been prevented had Trump not been so indecisive on taking action early on.

Once again, for the innumerate and the ignorant: all of the what-ifs are based at worst on pulled-out-of-an-ass guesses, and at best on projections from the inaccurate, unverified and unverifiable, worthless, never-intended-for-policy models.

 

[Donald H]

>Except the virus of course that's not his fault, even though estimates are that 130,000 deaths could have been prevented had Trump not been so indecisive on taking action early on.

Once again, for the innumerate and the ignorant: all of the what-ifs are based at worst on pulled-out-of-an-*** guesses, and at best on projections from the inaccurate, unverified and unverifiable, worthless, never-intended-for-policy models.

It really does look like the Biden point is solid Brad, and it's being quite generous to say that Trump's only responsible for 130,000 of the nearly 200,000.
Although Trump will claim that the deaths would be in  the millions if not for him and his quick action on pretending to stop the flow of people from China.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Prove it.  Compare the known deaths to the projection of a model which was verifiable and verified.  [Also: prove the mitigation was within Trump's authority as president and would not have been meaningfully opposed by other levels of authority.]

 

[observor 69]

Can we agree that if Trump showed some leadership by wearing a mask, or at least endorsing them as a means of reducing deaths, that it would be useful?

 

[Brad Sallows]

What is the current medical community concensus on mask-wearing?

 

[Donald H]

Can we agree that if Trump showed some leadership by wearing a mask, or at least endorsing them as a means of reducing deaths, that it would be useful?

Trump won't advise people to wear a mask because he doesn't want anybody taking the virus seriously. Just listen to him claiming it's fake and all a political ploy by the left, socialists, commies, whatever!

So people took him seriously in Florida and look at their statistics now! This attitude by Trump could keep the death toll at about a thousand a day indefinitely but Trump can't change his mind now.

 

[Blackadder1916]

What is the current medical community concensus on mask-wearing?

CDC calls on Americans to wear masks to prevent COVID-19 spread
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0714-americans-to-wear-masks.html

Press Release  For Immediate Release: Tuesday, July 14, 2020

. . .

In an editorial published today in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), CDC reviewed the latest science and affirms that cloth face coverings are a critical tool in the fight against COVID-19 that could reduce the spread of the disease, particularly when used universally within communities. There is increasing evidence that cloth face coverings help prevent people who have COVID-19 from spreading the virus to others.

“We are not defenseless against COVID-19,” said CDC Director Dr. Robert R. Redfield. “Cloth face coverings are one of the most powerful weapons we have to slow and stop the spread of the virus – particularly when used universally within a community setting. All Americans have a responsibility to protect themselves, their families, and their communities.”

. . .

And, of course, President Trump shares a "natural ability" for science because his uncle was an MIT professor.

 

[PuckChaser]

Can we agree that if Trump showed some leadership by wearing a mask, or at least endorsing them as a means of reducing deaths, that it would be useful?

I guess calling wearing a mask "patriotic" probably isn't endorsing it, right? https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/politics/donald-trump-mask-tweet/index.html

We're way off topic though, I'll clean all this up into the COVID political thread.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>CDC calls on Americans to wear masks to prevent COVID-19 spread

There you have it; masks on for now.

 

[Donald H]

>CDC calls on Americans to wear masks to prevent COVID-19 spread

There you have it; masks on for now.

Myself Brad, being rather neutral who that country chooses for their next president, I can say that the Dem side is definitely playing politics with the Covid-19 issue for their own political gain. They're quite confident that if the virus is still raging by election time it will be one of their aces in the hole. Just exactly the opposite of Trump's side that is attempting to play it down and say it's over.

So could the Dems  be wishing and hoping for the virus to continue? Sadly, I would say yup. Can we Canadians have a more realistic and unbiased look at what's happening in America, at least as far as it relates to the virus?

 

[shawn5o]

Trump won't advise people to wear a mask because he doesn't want anybody taking the virus seriously. Just listen to him claiming it's fake and all a political ploy by the left, socialists, commies, whatever!

So people took him seriously in Florida and look at their statistics now! This attitude by Trump could keep the death toll at about a thousand a day indefinitely but Trump can't change his mind now.

Hi Don

The first two highlited sentences are not correct.

From Snopes: "Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax. During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu."
(Check the date)

As for Florida, did you bring that state up because of its Republican Gov.? According to the CDC, Illinois and NYC arethe states with the most covid cases
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fcases-updates%2Fcases-in-us.html#cases
CDC | Updated: Sep 2 2020 12:16PM

 

[Donald H]

Hi Don

The first two highlited sentences are not correct.

From Snopes: "Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax. During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu."
(Check the date)

As for Florida, did you bring that state up because of its Republican Gov.? According to the CDC, Illinois and NYC arethe states with the most covid cases
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fcases-updates%2Fcases-in-us.html#cases
CDC | Updated: Sep 2 2020 12:16PM

Shawn, I mentioned Florida because it's currently leading the states on deaths and maybe infection rates.

Another factor that needs to be considered is population density, as that pertains to Florida or New York. I check out worldometers often to see how the US, Canada, and the rest of the world is doing.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I always appreciate your civil tone Shawn, and I really don't have much of an axe to grind on this issue. My impression is that both political parties in the US are a lot more interested in political gain than they're intereseted in saving lives. As I tried to convey my impession of the whole cluster--- in my last post. :cheers: