CBSA arming

[Blackhorse7]

HDE...

I apologize in advance if this comes off as condescending, that's not my intention.

It is not as simple as "simply increasing the numbers of Mounties/Police Officers to provide backup." 

There is a MASSIVE shortage of Policing in the RCMP, and I am sure in Municipal Police forces as well, and the future is not looking any brighter.  We (the RCMP) are looking at running huge shortages for the next several years until recruiting can catch up to the demand for Policing.  There is simply no way that there can be additional members added to be an armed back-up to the border officers.  We are having a hard enough time maintaining minimun staffing levels at Detachments.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

You just hit the golden nail with the golden hammer.  It's about the money.  If you give them guns, then they are pretty much on a parallel with the Horsemen, so you have to ramp up their pay.  The guns themselves and training are expensive, and increasing personnel is hugely expensive.  Remember, until recently, the main focus of government spending was to line the pockets of their friends.
Police are not allowed at the border for deployment.  It is a territory thing and the RCMP resist it.  The funny thing is, they generally don't want to attend the border locations here unless the seizure is something that will make national headlines.  Recently, a guy got pinned with 400 tabs of ecstasy, and the RCMP were not interested in continuing the arrest.  The guy got a large fine and was sent on his way.  Fines for drug traffickers.  That would be like telling a fuel tanker that as a penalty it had to gas up a car.  OOOO.  It stings!
Things are getting better.  Apparently there is talk about an actual Border Patrol, which is long overdue.  Let's all hold a torch out for Mr. Harper.

 

[HDE]

Blackhorse7

  No problem!  There's a piece in the latest MacLean's highlighting exactly the point you make.  Apparently there's a shortage of about 400 in the Municipal/Provincial Policing end and bodies are being pulled out of the Federal Policing end to compensate.  Forgive me if I get the names incorect; I'm using what was used in MacLeans's  ;D My point, I guess, is that I'm not sure that the resources wouldn't be better spent ramping up a specific group of officers,  sort of a Canadian Border Patrol,  to provide an armed presence, rather than spreading sidearms all across the spectrum.

 

[dutchie]

THERE IS NOTHING MAGICAL OR COMPLICATED ABOUT SHOOTING SOMEONE! 

It is something you train for. 
Okay.
Go with Caesars assumption that the border are a barely functioning bunch of Barney Fife hammerheads that only get by on God's grace and the magic wishing trolls they all are issued. 

Where did I state this?

It seems like you are being selective in your Customs information, Cesar.  What you posted is a testing criterion to be considered for hiring, which creates a profile of the candidate.  You conveniently forgot the other parts of the site, such as:

I posted the Statement of Quals - what an applicant is assessed on. My WHOLE point was that BSOs are not assessed for their ability/willingnes to use deadly force. The RCMP does this, muni police forces do this, and of course the CF does this.

I will refer you to my last post:

I in no way intended to insult you, and regret doing so. However, my only contention was:

1-The vast majority of current BSOs were not evaluated for their ability/willingness to use deadly force, and as such,

2-It is unreasonable to expect that a majority possess that ability/willingness.

3-Many (I said most, which is incorrect) BSOs, due to the Statement of Quals they were hired against, are more in line with your average Civil Servant, and not say, Police Officers.

4-Arming ALL BSOs, regardless of ability is irresponsible.

5-Arming some, but not all, BSOs, would pose a great risk to unarmed BSOs as the 'bad guys' would assume they are armed, and treat any confrontation as such. IE-the bad guys would bring a gun to a fist fight.

If anyone is expected to arrest and detain people, they have to be equipped to deal with the hostile lawless elements

You are right. Did you not notice where I stated that BSOs should be armed? I'll remind you:

I think all BSOs should be armed,

Ahhh, this is a little closer to the mark.  You are a scorned Customs wanna be. 

Never applied, but nice try pal.

 

[Jarnhamar]

CBC News has learned that when unarmed Canadian border guards found out the murder suspects were coming their way they left their posts at four crossings along the B.C. border. Only two supervisors were left at each crossing to protect the Canadian side.

A spokeswoman with Canada Border Services says the guards have the legal right to refuse to work if they believe they are in imminent danger

Is this the same reason why the customs officers walked off the job in cornwall?  A woman threated to call some local "warriors" who have a history with customs and it spooked them and they left?

Walking off the job shouldn't be an option, especially for customs agents.
Giving these guys pistols to defend themselves is common sense isn't it?   Why would someone make a big deal about this?

I think people try to say because it makes us look too much like americans, and they want to look Canadian. Which is bullshit childish and dangerous. Who cares if our american counter-parts have weapons.  Our guys should be armed. Who cares what we look like. This I don't wanna be am american game a lot of canadians are hung up on is out to lunch.
If it's a matter of giving them the silly FAC, PAL, POL course then just give it to them. It took me under an hour for the non-restricted and restricted and i aced them both.  (I'm not a smart guy!)
Send them to a shooting range for a week-end and get them some hand gun training and presto.
If it's all about money, well, how much is protecting our borders and the loves of border officers worth?

This is right up with the brilliance of not giving our corrections officers body armor because it looks scarry and might intimidate the prisoners.

Where applicable, we should throw the reserves class B contracts to patrol the borders.

No additional money required to train people.  No additional money required for weapons AND it gives our reserves much needed training. 

 

[Thompson_JM]

...Where applicable, we should throw the reserves class B contracts to patrol the borders.
No additional money required to train people.  No additional money required for weapons AND it gives our reserves much needed training... 

To be Honest, I like the idea... I can also see the lineup to apply being out the door, since there would be so many PRes guys wanting to do it...

the problem with that though, is do you limit the trades who can apply?

and which trade would be more Qualified? I could see some problems arising out of that, only because some people might only join up the PRes so they could get Border Duty....

plus with PRes guys having skills some RegF guys in the same trade may not, it does go back to the question of limiting which trades could do it...

ie who might be better qualified to handle this duty?
a Nav-Comms guy with 3-4 years of security work, and a Degree in Justice Studies?

an Armd Recce Guy who works Full Time in a machine shop?

I can see the power that be, (if this ever occured) setting up the tasking req. so that it may only be open to Cbt. Arm trades, since in past we WOG's have never really been thought of in any role other then support.

anyways, just fireing off some random thoughts from the top of my head... bear with me, ive been up entirely far too long, and If im right off the mark on this then I do Apologize.

Cheers

    Josh

 

[TCBF]

Patrolling is an All Arms and Services Task.  Should be no problems making it open to all reservists who pass the fitness test and training.  The ones who need some exercise can humpo the NW Ont/Minn border, and the BC/Wash border.



Tom

 

[Jarnhamar]

the problem with that though, is do you limit the trades who can apply?

and which trade would be more Qualified? I could see some problems arising out of that, only because some people might only join up the PRes so they could get Border Duty....

It wouldn't be anything spectacular.  The idea would be to give reserves training (1 week-end a month isn't much) while providing law enforcement with more eyes on the border.

Each regiment could be tasked with providing a group of soldiers who patrol a certain part of the border and switch it up. Makes it fair and removes the possibility of people joining JUST for the tasking.
Theres always reservists needing employment.  By patrolling for a week or two our guys would get some serious exposure to soldiering.  Doing patrolling for real for a week instead of the half tactical exercises at the end of the summer.

Who would it be open to?  Naturally combat arms but what would they basically be doing?  Point, area and especially route recce's.  If you can handle yourself on a recce then that's the meat and potato's of what you'll be doing.  Going from point a to point b either looking for signs of illegal activity or simply being a presence along the border.

If these guys come across anything they pass it on to the RCMP who then take over and do their thing.

 

[TCBF]

No different from any other task.  armed - yes.  ROE's:  sure, G8, OKA, October 70, the CF has done that.

Powers of arrest?  Every citizen has the power to arrest.

To shoot someone?  Every citizen has the power to shoot someone:  The ROE's yo get are mated to your right to self defence.  That righr acrues to you as a citizen - not a soldier.  You were born with that right, it was not issued.

Now, if you sign a 'Police Act' or some other clause where you voluntaraly agree to have such an act impede on your right to self defence, that is another story.

Tom

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Having more eyes and bodies all along the border is a great idea, but when the crap starts flying, thats where it gets tricky.  Do you not remember how fast the Army got hung out at Oka? 
Here is one potential scenario:
You take some Naval Reserve guys out in a patrol boat (seems logical for water stuff) with some Reserve MP's (also seems most closely suited) and come across a native smuggling boat which unknown to you is loaded with 5000 cartons of cigarettes and a couple of keys of coke.  When you approach, you will probably be fired on, likely with AK-s and small arms.  The obvious answer is "return fire" which I for one would love, but unless you can disable the craft and secure it, it will cut and run for the reservation.  Then you will have to try to deal with a whole shore line of sustained fire, likely including belt fed weapons and even light rockets like M-72's.  Because they can't afford to be caught.  If you had to pull back, that boat is gone and anyone who got waxed is a Dudley George hero/martyr.  The political fall out would be brutal and all those individuals that were out there trying to help would be spashed all over every liberal rag as "Rambo Murderers Take out Sacred Medicine Boat".  Sound far fetched?  Ask Ken Deane retired OPP TRU member if that could happen.  If you do manage to get the boat, you have one of thousands of smuggling runs and if you killed anyone in the process, the sh_tstorm is only just on the horizon...

Powers of arrest?  Every citizen has the power to arrest.

True, but not to enforce the Customs or Immigration Acts.  You need to be an actual peace officer for that.

To shoot someone?  Every citizen has the power to shoot someone:  The ROE's yo get are mated to your right to self defence.  That righr acrues to you as a citizen - not a soldier.  You were born with that right, it was not issued.

I will be the first to applaud rules of engagement against criminals, but I would be blown away to see the CF get that kind of green light from the Fed.  We don't even arm our Coast Guard for cripes sake! (I know, there is a thread for that one).  I stand to be corrected, but after Oka, wasn't there some sort of resolution that the Military would not be able to police citizens within Canada?  I would love to hear that had been ditched.
Don't forget also, anything you do "in self defence" in the heat of the moment will ultimately be picked apart by our severely socialist judges and the highly motivated and hugely compensated lawyers acting on the natives behalf.  Will you be willing to put everything you and your family own and will own on the line for this? 
And this is just one scenario (I'm not trying to rag on natives). 
If we are going to put more money into the Reserves, lets put it into training and equipment and let them make more of a contribution in the world scheme where it is really needed.

 

[TCBF]

I agree with your resoning in the present context.  Now, if the government was to pass legislation authorizing lethal force to maintain the territorial integrety of the nation, that would be different.

But, I think the scenario you mentioned would end diferently.  The boat would return the smuglers fire and break contact.  The boat's surv suite would record the fact that the boat fired BACK.  No problem

In any case, I think the ground scenario is much more plausible - Coyotes on surv, etc.

Tom

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Anything is better than nothing, but in reality the only practical and lasting solution is to have a proper armed Customs/Immigration trained Border Patrol.  We are not pulling our weight with cross border non-port illegal traffic.  If the next major terrorism incident on American soil is as a result of our porous border, we will look like total a-holes for not doing anything to stop that since 9/11. 
Now, if a proper border patrol officer were to be overseeing a group of properly trained soldiers on a joint forces op, that could get some real results.  I think the Army winging it would prove disastrous.

 

[STONEY]

One other small point i'd like to add to the discussion, on several occasions when i came through the border in the summer i was processed by a BSO who appeared to be about 12 years old. Later when i spoke to a friend of mine who is a investigator with BS he told me that they routinely hire students to help out in the busy summer season and they are so short of staff that standards are sometimes slackened ,and depending on who you know, or are related too gets one hired . Just how much training these people get , i don't know but should they also be armed? I'm sure the Border Service is aware of all the problems discussed on this thread and will be able to figure out the proper mix.  Federal fisheries officers can carry arms but not all of them do at all times, it depends on their tasking at the time . They receive their firearms/use of force training at RCMP depot Regina. If the politico's give the OK to arm the border service i'm sure they will be quite capable of figuring out the how's, they might already have a plan in place awaiting the go ahead.

Cheers.

 

[Blackhorse7]

That would be an interesting point... why not schedule random OP's and Coyote OP's, with the premise that any suspicious activity would be reported to local enforcement for action?  The OP's could guide the members right in, without having to take direct action unless directly engaged.

Win/win.  The Reg's/Reserves get in practice (albeit in a very limited, defined role), and border security is increased.

Needless to say, Border Officers need to be armed.  Period.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Now, if a proper border patrol officer were to be overseeing a group of properly trained soldiers on a joint forces op, that could get some real results.

This could work too.  Police forces working along side the military which helps with man power problems AND gives us training and lets us do stuff for real.


May be getting a little off topic but I think Canada needs to grow up, realise the world we are living in isn't all that nice and stop being so afraid of standing up for ourselves.
Border guards with guns, coast guard with guns. Shouldn't be an issue. Should we patrol our borders? Of course we should. Illegal immigrants, gun runners, drug runners, people stealing CHILDREN, all use the border. It's just something we need to deal with.

I think we need to stop treating the reserves with kid gloves and start using them for things like this too.  I'll leave exactly how to do this to smarter people but the reserves are a huge resource that should be tapped into.  A friend of mine in the states was telling me that her reserve unit goes into the mountains and forrests looking for pot fields, meth labs and stuff like that. Works with the DEA i think it was.  We can make much better use of our reserves and even regular force. Both our soldiers and commanders need more practice with urban and rural patrolling and operations.

I get a big feeling that most Canadians just don't want to believe we are at risk. If we smile and don't carry guns and be nice to everyone then somehow the bad guys will just leave us alone. Many are so worried about not 'looking American' that we are willing to put ourselves at risk.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Quite right.  It's like a story Rob Reuters told us on a Pipline/Convoy drug interdiction course.  He was at a fairly remote location in Manitoba, along the Trans Canada.  He was way ahead of the curve in Canada for commercial drug interdiction, and when he started to pick off big hauls, all of a sudden it looked like [Insert small village name here], Manitoba had a drug problem.  So they moved him out of there, and, presto!  [small village name here] doesn't have a drug problem anymore.  I completely agree that somebody somewhere really wants to keep Canada looking like some sort of public service announcement, rather than confront the organized crime and terrorism issues that we have here.  When I run people on CPIC, my computer allows me to run people NCIC, the American federal computer system for law enforcement.  To date, I have come across four area residents that are on the Homeland Security Terror Watch List as being active participants in supporting known terrorist organizations.  These aren't just guys that got photographed outside of a flag burning rally, these are real players. 
Hows this for a conspiracy theory:  Organized crime has long ago identified Canada as being weak on crime and having "the longest undefended (read: unsupervised) border in the world".  In order to facilitate smooth operations, they have located here, and quietly support socialist organizations and left oriented MP's who in turn appoint socialist judges.  All elements work to keep the country soft on enforcement and provide an unfettered playground for criminals and terrorists. 
People are ready to turn Syria into a parking lot for letting so much crap through their borders into Iraq.  I would love to get a hard number on people, drugs and weapons from there, and compare it to our own border situation (non-port, illegal entries).  I'm betting we would blow them away (stats wise, not the righteous rounds and ordinance way [soon, baby, soon]) .

I get a big feeling that most Canadians just don't want to believe we are at risk. If we smile and don't carry guns and be nice to everyone then somehow the bad guys will just leave us alone. Many are so worried about not 'looking American' that we are willing to put ourselves at risk.

Most Canadians are misinformed--thank you CBC and Toronto Star!  Canadians have some fairly solid core values, like wanting to be safe, and not provide a haven for a$$hats.  Initially you will have your hippie a-holes screaming Big Brother and Slippery Slope and other such rhetoric because they want to be able to hike and observe the chartruse, leafy toed, three bump newt in its natural habitat without ever seeing a human for the month they are skulking around in the woods.  Once this stuff starts getting out, though, the normal Canadians will start to think "Damn, maybe there is a problem".  And even more regrettably, it will probably be someone being killed at the Border that ram rods this thing forward.  We can only hope that it isn't one of our guys.

 

[J.J]

Sorry for responding to some to a few posts back, but a colicky 6 week old is keeping me busy... :crybaby:

Caesar I do apologize for stating that you have a "hate on" for BSO's, I believe now you are misinformed. The Statement of quals you listed is correct, but there is much more to the process than that. It states that successful completion of the Border Services Officer Training and Assessment Program for new recruits at the Border Services Learning Centre in Rigaud, Quebec. In Riguad the use of force and "officer powers (criminal code) is taught in the very beginning, if you cannot pass both successfully, you fail and go home. Before you take the interview the board will give you some paperwork with the job description. In that it will state, using force for to effect an arrest, handle firearms (that is why a PALS is required so the applicant will have rudimentary knowledge of firearms, we handle A LOT of firearms). It goes on to say we may have to work in a hazardous or dangerous environment. Dealing with aggressive and violent clients. If the applicant cannot agree to perform all functions, the interview stops and the recruiting process stops.
Our use of force instructors go to the RCMP Depot in Regina, they are on the same instructors course as the Police. They must do a re-qualification yearly in Regina. If you read any Police force's statement of qual's it says nothing about firearms, deadly force etc. it talks more of Community Service etc.

I would say there is some validity to your statement that most legacy Customs Inspectors are more in line with your average Civil Servant, and not say, Police Officers. That statement would have been true 10 years ago, today I can say I see more drugs, guns, money, terrorists than the majority of cops. In 5 1/2 years since the BSO's have been authorized to enforce the CC I have probably have arrested 25-30 drivers and obtained  convictions for impaired driving. The majority of those were in the first 2 years, I am not the exception or a "robo cop" I am the norm for my region, an average officer. We do not respond to car accidents and and do not handle the amount of domestics that a patrol officer would deal with, but I will deal with some situations that a patrol officer would never encounter. These days it is easy to say that BSO's are MORE in line with Police Officer's than civil servants. Saturday night they took a .25 cal from the pocket of a Detroit gang member, with several convictions for drugs and violence, when they went to get the weapon out of his pocket, he fought them. No one got hurt, but it does not sound like what a "run of the mill civil servant" or a "tax clerk" would do

I would probably quit and run for the hills if they armed every BSO, there are people there that should not have a sharpened pencil as they would hurt themselves and everyone around them. I do believe that the vast majority of BSO's would conduct themselves in a very professional manner if they were armed.

Having any military personal at the border will NEVER happen. If it takes several years to arm the officer's at the border, the gov't will not accept the military. Remember the Liebrals attack ad "Soldiers in the city, with GUNS". The US, even right after 9/11 did not arm the reserves or National Guard. They were working at all border points, they were there to assist the Officer's, but they were unarmed. The US has used armed soldiers on their southern border, but that is a completely different world.
I can see Blackhorse 7's idea being feasible, using Coyotes with a surv package, but not one crewman would have any weapons. It is needed out west as they are just walking back and forth at will. I can forsee that happening, I actually am surprised it has happened yet.

On the rumour net at work, it is going around at the management level that they have already started the initial process of building a range in Rigaud, the CBSA College.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I have probably have arrested 25-30 drivers and obtained  convictions for impaired driving. The majority of those were in the first 2 years, I am not the exception or a "robo cop" I am the norm for my region, an average officer.

Your'e a maniac with a Draeger, you menace.  Nice to see you back in the "game".

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Here is an excerpt from the Northgate Report, a study commissioned to look into the need for arming Border Services Officers:

Inherent High Risk Environment (Officer and Public Safety)
The number and frequency of Officers engaged in risk of injury situations are riddled
throughout this Report. From assaults, to intimidation, to being taken hostage, these
Officers are faced with a daily reality – the risk to their lives and to the Canadian public is
an everyday fact exacerbated by the unpredictability of human behaviour.
Unpredictable travellers are presenting themselves for inspection in an intoxicated (and
therefore unpredictable) state, with warrants active for their arrest, with firearms, drugs
and other contraband on their person or in their vehicle, and on a less frequent basis are
fugitives from justice. Again, this Report provides ample accounts of such lifethreatening
incidents. The Northgate Study confirmed what front-line Officers, CEUDA
and others have been expressing for years; what transpires at the POE, or what doesn’t,
is not simply a matter of Officer safety. Rather, the border is a point of examination,
interdiction and enforcement and what “gets through” creates a public safety and
security risk for Canadians.
CBSA policy mandates that Officers, when faced with a dangerous person, allow the
suspect entry and immediately call the police. This “Withdraw Policy” permits
unhindered entry into Canada of persons who are dangerous or are deliberately seeking
to avoid interception. This CBSA policy simply passes the responsibility of
apprehending such dangerous persons to the RCMP or another responding police
agency whose response times, on the whole, are incredibly inadequate. Officers
interviewed, however, do not fault their respective responding police agencies. Officers
stated those agencies are understaffed and are frequently tasked with patrolling vast
areas. The likelihood of there being an immediate police capacity to deal with the entry
of hostile, armed, and dangerous persons is, to say the least, remote.
Northgate shares the view that this is a policy that jeopardizes both Officer and public
safety and that should be immediately revoked. Accordingly, Northgate has made
recommendations for an armed border patrol (Recommendation #7) and that Officers
not allow Armed and Dangerous persons into the country (Recommendation #9).
As an example of Officer and public safety concerns, the Study describes, in Chapter 4,
the commercial off-site warehouse in Windsor, Ontario. Trucks identified as needing
further inspection are directed to a warehouse 3.4 kilometres from the Bridge on the
“honour system”. CBSA has made modest efforts at curtailing the number of trucks that
do not report to the warehouse under this “honour system” by instituting patrols of Huron
Church Road. These patrols are staffed with Border Services Officers whose task is to
accost drivers whose trucks are parked on the side of the road, and to inquire as to their
delay in reporting to the warehouse. By approaching a parked truck on the side of the
road, Officers are at serious risk of interrupting a drug/contraband transaction. Such
transactions are indeed occurring, as verified by statements from RIOs in Windsor who
have been told by their informants that every sort of contraband imaginable is being
dropped off, purchased, sold, and delivered within sight of the Bridge.

And that is one page of 187, and that is only looking at one little part of my personal piece of the pie.

 

[Adam_18]

unbelievable...using an honor system when dealing with suspected weapon/drug/ hell people smugglers ?...I'm just graduating high school and i think thats a sh*t way to go...

Then to top it off they want the officers to not only deal with these criminals (who if they have their sh*t wired are armed), but to do it with only some mace and a batton...i only hope we don't get a border crossing version of Mayerthorp Alberta to realise that these officers need firearms.

Adam