CAP 2010

[blackberet17]

Holy crap. I thought working for the FPS (Federal Public Service) was bad for acronyms...and I find more!! ULO, De-whatever that was...

I'm nominated for CAP 19 May, which sounds odd, to me, being middle of the week. I figured (thanks, Mr. Wallace) we'd be a bunch., split into several platoons.

Petamocto, I haven't forgotten about your PM offer for info. I'll just you let you know now, I'm focused on getting through my BMQ, before switching focus on CAP/BMOQ-L (there go the acronyms again).

I do have one quick question for the time being...I am (ahem) a little on the older side than most, I expect. Okay, don't start asking if I've filed for my OAP yet, I'm (in my book) only 35. What is the average age, from Petamocto and Mr. Wallace's experience, the average age of OCdt's?

Mr.Wallace, what the bleep-dee-bleep is Clones?

Oh, quick question #2: Are 13 weeks (nominated from 19 May to 18 Aug) a little long? I'd read in previous posts BMOQ-L was 10 weeks... i.e. mods running two weeks, and there are five mods. This is the Army, so I know not to expect Canaday Day and Victoria Day as "holidays", but now I'm curious.

Also (question #3), a major I work with in civvie life, and whose been helping me with a few things, noted it was a little odd I was doing BMQ with potential members of my troop down the road (Arm'rd Recce), none of whom are OCdt as I am...I'm the only one of about a dozen... Any thoughts on that?

 

[ballz]

Oh, quick question #2: Are 13 weeks (nominated from 19 May to 18 Aug) a little long? I'd read in previous posts BMOQ-L was 10 weeks... i.e. mods running two weeks, and there are five mods. This is the Army, so I know not to expect Canaday Day and Victoria Day as "holidays", but now I'm curious.

Also (question #3), a major I work with in civvie life, and whose been helping me with a few things, noted it was a little odd I was doing BMQ with potential members of my troop down the road (Arm'rd Recce), none of whom are OCdt as I am...I'm the only one of about a dozen... Any thoughts on that?

#2 It does seem long. The dates were posted in another thread and besides the serials that started in January, the next serials were scheduled to start 25 May - 30 Jul, which is 11 weeks. Summer CAPs are indeed, according to my joining instructions, 10 weeks long (and I assume the extra week is admin stuff or a parade). You'll have to talk to your CoC about that stuff. Maybe they have other things for you to do.

#3 Should be no concerns there. PRes OCdts do BMQ with their reserve units. If the concern is that your going to be too good of friends with your old BMQ buddies to be their leader, well, that's something your going to have to deal with. It shouldn't be that hard to get over.

#3

 

[SeanNewman]

... What is the average age, from Petamocto and Mr. Wallace's experience, the average age of OCdt's?

Oh, quick question #2: Are 13 weeks...a little long? I'd read in previous posts BMOQ-L was 10 weeks...

Also (question #3)...noted it was a little odd I was doing BMQ with potential members of my troop down the road...

1. 35 is no problem.  You'll certainly be above the median, but there will probably be 6-7 other people in the platoon in their 30s.  You get the odd one in their 40s, too.  That being said, the summer is typically younger for candidates because of Reservist students and RMC, where as the rest of the year is an older crowd (already went to school, 2nd career, etc).

2. 13 weeks is longer than BMOQ-L, even in the winter when there is added Winter Warfare training added on.  Keep in mind that they may have added extra time to your task for a few days of travel and acclimatization on both sides (?).

3.  Not understood.  I don't understand how you could do BMQ and then BMOQ-L?  The first one is NCM phase 1, and the second course is officer phase 2.  Phase 1 for officers is called BMOQ.  There is a lot of overlap to the two courses such as learning about life in the CF (rank structure, drill, etc), but BMOQ has the added leadership component.  They're both in St Jean in the Megaplex, but you aren't even in the same wing of the building let alone on the same course.

 

[ballz]

3.  Not understood.  I don't understand how you could do BMQ and then BMOQ-L?  The first one is NCM phase 1, and the second course is officer phase 2.  Phase 1 for officers is called BMOQ.  There is a lot of overlap to the two courses such as learning about life in the CF (rank structure, drill, etc), but BMOQ has the added leadership component.  They're both in St Jean in the Megaplex, but you aren't even in the same wing of the building let alone on the same course.

AFAIK, PRes Officers do BMQ with their reserve units and then head to CAP. As far as I've been able to find out from piecing bits of everything together, there's really nothing we learned on the BMOQ leadership portion that we aren't going to be retaught at CAP.

In CAP, do they teach you how to write proper format for orders, or are you expected to already know that since we were taught it in BMOQ? If they're going to reteach that, then there's really nothing I can think of he's going to be missing that he's going to need. Of course I don't know the curriculum like you, but it looks like Mod 3, PO 202 – Plan Operations, might teach that again?

 

[SeanNewman]

What?  Wow...I just learned something today.  My God the Reservists are weird*...

I disagree about BMOQ not serving any purpose.  First of all, it serves as a front-line filter to get rid of people who should have never made it past the recruiting center, and those people who are on the bubble will learn more lessons and be mentored better if they fail leadership tasks and improve (passing the retests).  So Gagetown gets a better product to build on.

Second, leadership should be the first and only focus you have as an officer.  The saying "soldiers first" means that you put them before yourself, not that you are a soldier before a leader.  Officers need to be leaders first, soldiers second.  In my opinion it's disastrous not to focus on that from day 1.

Last (and a bit controversial), while I am all for soldiers and leaders being on good terms, there is a line that should not be crossed in terms of familiarity.  This is nothing new and not some revelation that I came up with; from Art of War to The Prince and since, it has been identified that there should be a separation between officers and men.  This has nothing at all to do with one being higher than the other (not the way you see on old British movies where the Officers treat the men like crap) but about each needing their own space at times.  Absolutely the leaders and men should share hardships in the field be it combat or digging your own trench, but each side needs to have a break to cut loose.  Soldiers need to blow off steam without worrying about officers seeing what they're doing, and officers need to blow off steam without worrying about the men seeing what they're doing.  Different regiments have set the bars at different levels, but I do not agree with a joined basic.  There are other courses later on where it may work like Recce or Para, but those are later on and even those are not infallible.

My first unit was E&K so I'm qualified to say Reservists are retarded retards.

 

[ballz]

What?  Wow...I just learned something today.  My God the Reservists are weird*...

1. I disagree about BMOQ not serving any purpose.  First of all, it serves as a front-line filter to get rid of people who should have never made it past the recruiting center, and those people who are on the bubble will learn more lessons and be mentored better if they fail leadership tasks and improve (passing the retests).  So Gagetown gets a better product to build on.

2. Second, leadership should be the first and only focus you have as an officer.  The saying "soldiers first" means that you put them before yourself, not that you are a soldier before a leader.  Officers need to be leaders first, soldiers second.  In my opinion it's disastrous not to focus on that from day 1.

3. Last (and a bit controversial), while I am all for soldiers and leaders being on good terms, there is a line that should not be crossed in terms of familiarity.  This is nothing new and not some revelation that I came up with; from Art of War to The Prince and since, it has been identified that there should be a separation between officers and men.  This has nothing at all to do with one being higher than the other (not the way you see on old British movies where the Officers treat the men like crap) but about each needing their own space at times.  Absolutely the leaders and men should share hardships in the field be it combat or digging your own trench, but each side needs to have a break to cut loose.  Soldiers need to blow off steam without worrying about officers seeing what they're doing, and officers need to blow off steam without worrying about the men seeing what they're doing.  Different regiments have set the bars at different levels, but I do not agree with a joined basic.  There are other courses later on where it may work like Recce or Para, but those are later on and even those are not infallible.

My first unit was E&K so I'm qualified to say Reservists are retarded retards.

1. I didn't say it doesn't serve any purpose?

2. Where did I say anything about being a soldier first? I agree with what you're saying, and that's exactly what we were taught at St. Jean.

3. I agree with that whole thing too, and again, we were taught that at St. Jean...

So that turned out to be quite a spill....

What I was talking about with "not learning anything on BMOQ that we won't relearn on CAP" was technical and theoretical stuff... I was not asying that the lessons and experiences at BMOQ were useless....

Can you answer my question about learning the SMESC system at CAP?

 

[SeanNewman]

In stating that you didn't learn anything on BMOQ that you couldn't learn on BMOQ-L, you implied BMOQ was useless.

The first part of my thread was the only part aimed at you.

The second two points are about the downfalls of a mixed BMQ/BMOQ, not about Ph1 vs Ph2.

Saying that since you use SMESC on BMOQ-L so you don't need to learn it on BMOQ is faulty logic.  It would be like saying that since a Sgt uses a C7 while he is on DP3B that he doesn't need to learn it before then.

You will use SMESC on every set of orders you ever write on every leadership course you ever do. 

 

[blackberet17]

You will use SMESC on every set of orders you ever write on every leadership course you ever do.

Um, okay, lost in Acronym Land again...SMESC?

To be honest, I'm going in with eyes and ears wide open. I'm here to learn how to be the best I can be (Lord, did I just sound American? FUBAR'd)...so, whatever I'm to be taught, lay it on me.

Thanks for not making me feel like a guy waiting at Shoppers DM for his senior's discount, too 

As to one of the other points raised by Petamocto, I understand completely. However, my two cents-worth is this: if the lads I'm training with in BMQ are going to be my troopers/drivers in my RECCE squad, I'd rather I knew who they were, what they were about, even if just a little bit, than be a bunch of guys the first time I'm going to serve with, I have no effing clue what makes them tick, and need to count on down the road.

 

[AD]

SMESC= Situation, Mission, Execution, Service and Support, Comd and Sigs...you will come to know and love this acronym. As Petamocto stated, you will use it on every set of orders.

This is where BMOQ is helpful, the receiving, writing, and issuing of orders is covered very extensively. So much so it becomes a natural fluid process. It will definitely be reviewed on CAP, but I'm not sure if it will be taught as extensively as it is on BMOQ.

Regarding CAP, I read some joining instructions and it is HIGHLY recommended to have all the necessary kit issued to you by your parent unit rather than Gagetown. The shelves are emptier than the ones in st. jean (that are only filled by taking clothing from candidates who were issued kit from their parent units). So get your kit before course!

 

[ballz]

In stating that you didn't learn anything on BMOQ that you couldn't learn on BMOQ-L, you implied BMOQ was useless.

The first part of my thread was the only part aimed at you.

The second two points are about the downfalls of a mixed BMQ/BMOQ, not about Ph1 vs Ph2.

Saying that since you use SMESC on BMOQ-L so you don't need to learn it on BMOQ is faulty logic.  It would be like saying that since a Sgt uses a C7 while he is on DP3B that he doesn't need to learn it before then.

You will use SMESC on every set of orders you ever write on every leadership course you ever do.

I did not say that. I said if they are going to RETEACH it (as in, teach it all over again from scratch) then you wouldn't need to have learned it on BMOQ.

"If they're going to reteach that, then there's really nothing I can think of he's going to be missing that he's going to need."

That is to say, it would not be *detrimental* if he did not already know it, *if* it were going to be *taught* (not used... taught) again anyway. Would it be advantageous to already know it beforehand, absolutely. I was not stating or implying that BMOQ was useless. I certainly am not qualified to go around calling any training useless.

That said, I have since received a PM from somebody saying that on CAP we will do a bit of review of SMESC with some TEWTs for practice, but will already be expected to know it, so... I don't know how the PRes guys can go from BMQ to CAP, not sure how they can pull that off... unless I'm wrong about PRes Officers doing a BMQ (I am wrong an awful lot...).

 

[squeezboks]

I can only speak from what I have been told thus far as a PRes OCdt loaded for BMOQ and nominated for BMOQ-L this summer.

According to my CoC, Pres OCdts do BMQ with the troops (called BMOQ Mod 1) and then do a 10 day leadership course (called BMOQ Mod 2).  We then move on to BMOQ-L (formerly CAP).

Perhaps for the PRes, BMOQ Mod 2 is the course that teaches SMESC prior to BMOQ-L.

 

[ballz]

I can only speak from what I have been told thus far as a PRes OCdt loaded for BMOQ and nominated for BMOQ-L this summer.

According to my CoC, Pres OCdts do BMQ with the troops (called BMOQ Mod 1) and then do a 10 day leadership course (called BMOQ Mod 2).  We then move on to BMOQ-L (formerly CAP).

Perhaps for the PRes, BMOQ Mod 2 is the course that teaches SMESC prior to BMOQ-L.

Well that BMOQ Mod 2 is an important detail. Mod 2, the "leadership course" would definitely be about SMESC.

Now it is starting line up well with the Reg Force BMOQ, which is also done in 2 mods (albeit it much longer)... 8 weeks for Mod 1 which is basically a compressed version of the Reg Force BMQ, and 6 weeks for Mod 2, which is the leadership portion that deals with SMESC.

EDIT to remove a question: You know what, I'm just going to leave this all alone since it all makes sense for me and I don't want to guess/speculate.

 

[vonGarvin]

(insert pedantic mode)
SMESC = the five paragraph format for orders.  It is a NATO format, and the letters stand for:
Situation
Mission
Execution
Service Support
Command and Signal
(Note the absence of any "s" at the end of "Signal": it is a verb, not a noun in plural form)

As for BMQ with NCMs.  It is a reserve-only thing, and constitutes the very first part of officer training for reservist officers.  It's all about being efficient with resources.  While there may be more than enough Pte (R) to run BMQ at the armouries, there are rarely enough OCdt to run one.  As a reservist with The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment in 1985, we had one (1) OCdt "attend" BMQ (then called TQ 1 I believe) with us.  Then off to Gagetown he went for Phase 2 Infantry.  I'm not sure if his attendance on my course was formal, or just giving him some experience in weapons' handling, etc.  I think it worked well for him: he ended up being top candidate that summer. 

 

[blackberet17]

(insert pedantic mode)
As for BMQ with NCMs.  It is a reserve-only thing, and constitutes the very first part of officer training for reservist officers.  It's all about being efficient with resources.  While there may be more than enough Pte (R) to run BMQ at the armouries, there are rarely enough OCdt to run one.  As a reservist with The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment in 1985, we had one (1) OCdt "attend" BMQ (then called TQ 1 I believe) with us.  Then off to Gagetown he went for Phase 2 Infantry.  I'm not sure if his attendance on my course was formal, or just giving him some experience in weapons' handling, etc.  I think it worked well for him: he ended up being top candidate that summer. 

The Hasty Ps! A fine regiment.  I finished reading Mowat's "The Regiment" about a month ago.

IMO, I appreciate the training I've received thus far, as an OCdt on BMQ with Pvt's (R), and assume it can only prove beneficial down the line.

Regarding CAP, I read some joining instructions and it is HIGHLY recommended to have all the necessary kit issued to you by your parent unit rather than Gagetown. The shelves are emptier than the ones in st. jean (that are only filled by taking clothing from candidates who were issued kit from their parent units). So get your kit before course!

Allie'd forces, where did you find the joining instructions? I'd appreciate a link.

Please tell me I can leave my winter whites at home...our DET is having some trouble getting kit in...I've been after them for a bivy bag since enlistment!

 

[AD]

Hey Blackbaret,

I was emailed them, no link, so just PM me your email addy and I can send everything I have to you! Also, unless you're going on a winter course or are being posted there you do not need your winter kit.  If someone here with more experience tells you to bring it, I would take their advice as I have never been to Gagetown. I'm being restricted posted so I'm bringing everything!

 

[51AmbCMedic]

Hey Gents,

Just to add to this conversation, I have received confirmation for my BOTP2 / CAP course which will be held in Aldershot, NS.  Beginning 19 May - 18 Aug.  I should be receiving the official joining instructions from my unit soon.

 

[SeanNewman]

It's just not the same if you don't take the course in Gagetown, where ponds sit on the tops of hills and the mosquitoes outweigh the flies...until the massive flies come out.

 

[Loachman]

as an OCdt on BMQ with Pvt's (R), and assume it can only prove beneficial down the line.

That's "Pte", not "Pvt".

"Pvt" is short for "Pervert".

They might be, but that's not our position to judge.

As for any benefit from being on course with Perverts, I'll leave that to you to decide - somewhere "down the line".

 

[51AmbCMedic]

It's just not the same if you don't take the course in Gagetown, where ponds sit on the tops of hills and the mosquitoes outweigh the flies...until the massive flies come out.

I've never been to Gagetown, but Valcatraz has some interesting arthropod species that I'm pretty sure were genetically modified at the defense R&D center on base.

 

[GGHG_Cadet]

Are any of you guys on the CAP course starting June 7th? I was initially on a predominately RMC course that started on May 25th; however, I twisted my ankle and had to ask for a later course. There are only a couple people that I know who are on my posting message, is anyone here on a course starting next week?  (I realize there will be several platoons but we may still end up in the same one)