CANFORGEN on Pay and PIL

[PuckChaser]

I find it interesting that many of the complaints here centre around the idea that there are obviously not enough people working on what is proving to be a particularly labour-intensive process.  Now where would those people come from?  Another common theme on this forum is that there are too many people in HQs doing seemingly "pointless" staff work and not enough folks in the front line units (i.e. our "tooth to tail" ratio is all screwed up).  The sad reality is that if we want to reduce the "tail" in the organization and put more resources into the "teeth," that's fine, but we also have to recognize that our staff functions (which are still necessary), will become less efficient and will take longer.

Why did we need a PIL team in the first place? They should have been there for extraordinary cases, and let unit ORs do the auditting (which they had to do anyway) for the vast majority of cases. Its not about "tooth to tail" ratio, its effectively leveraging the skills of the "tail" we have integral to all units in the CF.

I think you're misreading what sort of pointless staff work a lot of members on this forum want gone, and RMS clerks aren't one of them...

 

[dapaterson]

A few thoughts:

1.  Many other departments had delays due to the contract agreements to implement PiL not being reached.  Indeed, within DND the payout was staggered, depending on the collective agreements - the PA group were first, PGs only recently received it, and the FIs are only now getting the option.  Not quite apples to apples.

2.  Units could not implement this on their own; there's too great a potential for miuse of authority in a situation involving a large amount of public money.  "Hey there, Cpl RMS clerk.  I'm the LCol in command who can control your future career or lack thereof.  Now that you understand that, remember that my daily rate of pay for PiL was $10000.".  That said, there could have been decentralized models for managing the PiL payment; unfortunately, mission command is something discussed on courses but rarely implemented in the real world.

 

[Navy_Pete]

And a new CANFORGEN for Christmas:


CANFORGEN 208/13 CMP 092/13 202033Z DEC 13
PAYMENT IN LIEU(PIL) OF CANADIAN FORCES SEVERANCE PAY(CFSP)
UNCLASSIFIED

THE TAX WAIVER FORM IS CONTAINED IN THE CFSP/REHABILITATION LEAVE ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTIVE AND MUST BE APPLIED FOR A SPECIFIC YEAR. IF YOU DID NOT RECEIVE PIL PAYMENT BEFORE 31 DEC 2013, YOU WILL HAVE TO SUBMIT A NEW REQUEST TO CRA AND FORWARD THE NEW FORM TO THE PIL TEAM. IF YOU DO NOT SUBMIT A NEW REQUEST, THE PROCESSING OF YOUR PIL REQUEST WILL BE DELAYED. YOU ARE REMINDED TO INCLUDE YOUR SERVICE NUMBER ON ALL DOCUMENTS. YOU CAN SEND YOUR NEW FORM DIRECTLY TO THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM ATPLUS)DMCA 4 PIL TEAM(AT SIGN)CMP DMCA(AT SIGN)OTTAWA-HULL

Can someone confirm I am reading this correctly?  So if I've yet to get the PIL payout, I have to email a new form to the email included for the 2014 tax year, that I can presumably get at the included DWAN site?

THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM HAS RECEIVED OVER 45 THOUSAND FILES TO AUDIT. THE AUDIT HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND PAYMENT, AUTHORIZED FOR OVER 23 THOUSAND FILES. THE TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON FILES RECEIVED 18 MAR 13. DMCA EXPECTS COMPLETION OF THE PIL OF CFSP PROJECT BY JUN 2014
.....

Is that received by date for when it was submitted to the BOR or when DMCA received it?  I know when I dropped it off, but no idea when it was forwarded to DMCA.

Also, did they not preaudit everyone's files to determine how much eligible time would be put against the payout, and then do a quick data pull from the pay system at that point to have the pay rate to figure out the amount, so they would know how much to create the PAYE for that fiscal for all PIL payments?  I really can't wrap my head around why they need to audit anything at this point, as it should have already been done.

As an aside, when are we transitioning to to sentence case messages (vice all capitals)?  I always have a hard time reading them in all caps, regardless of how many I go through.

Putting this out on 24 Dec was just dirty pool though; pretty much guarantees no one will see it until around now.  It's not like they didn't know about this in November (and earlier).  It would have been pretty easy to have the forms in once you confirmed it wasn't on the mid december pay if you were one of the 23k still being processed.

 

[Tibbson]

Can someone confirm I am reading this correctly?  So if I've yet to get the PIL payout, I have to email a new form to the email included for the 2014 tax year, that I can presumably get at the included DWAN site?


Is that received by date for when it was submitted to the BOR or when DMCA received it?  I know when I dropped it off, but no idea when it was forwarded to DMCA.

Yes, you will need to get a new form to them and it is available from the DWAN site.  Also, the date the PIL team uses is the date their received it, not the date it was received at your BOR.  Some BOR's sent them in at regular intervals as they received them from the member and some held them all till the end and sent them in all at once.  Your BOR should be able to tell you when it was sent to Ottawa.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Putting this out on 24 Dec was just dirty pool though; pretty much guarantees no one will see it until around now.  It's not like they didn't know about this in November (and earlier).  It would have been pretty easy to have the forms in once you confirmed it wasn't on the mid december pay if you were one of the 23k still being processed.

It was sent on 20 Dec (and likely drafted 3-5 days earlier than that) - when the PiL Team was still at work, unlike most of the rest of us, who were on leave.

 

[George Wallace]

Yes, you will need to get a new form to them and it is available from the DWAN site.  Also, the date the PIL team uses is the date their received it, not the date it was received at your BOR.  Some BOR's sent them in at regular intervals as they received them from the member and some held them all till the end and sent them in all at once.  Your BOR should be able to tell you when it was sent to Ottawa.

So?  With all the screwing around with priorities, what do the guys and gals who retired in the meantime do?  Not having access to the DWAN anymore, I am sure they are curious as to what procedures they are to follow? 

 

[Pusser]

It's an exceptional manning need, not something that will endure. Perfect instance to hire some reservists full time, or some public servants from the pools on term contracts. Let's not pretend for a second that there isn't massive headquarters bloat- and not on necessary staff functions, but on largely redundant bureaucratic ones- a different beast entirely.

First off, they did bring in extra people.  Apparently, just not enough.  Although, from where are all these extra people supposed to come?  There seems to be this belief that there are thousands of reservists out there just chomping at the bit and ready to jump in for this sort of thing (If you call them, they will come?).  This just isn't the case.  Specific skill sets are needed for this sort of work.  You can't hire just anyone.

On another note, this audit is not something newly created for PIL.  This audit has always been done for every member releasing from the CF (PIL is essentially a release benefit).  PIL has only created the requirement to do a massive amount of files all at once.  It is to confirm that the member has been paid correctly over the course of their career and includes a look at all allowances, rates of pay and leave.  It's the final opportunity to ensure that everything is in order as once the member leaves, it can be difficult to track them down to recover overpayments OR underpayments (yes, those happen too).  Could it have been done better?  Probably.  It is beyond me why we don't conduct periodic audits over the course of a member's career to make it go quicker at the end, but then again, they never asked me (although I did mention this to DMPAP once over a beer).  The staff answer is that they never saw a huge need to do so because at one time, it only took a few weeks to do the audit, but with staff cuts over the years (getting rid of that HQ bloat), the processing time has gotten longer...

 

[George Wallace]

First off, they did bring in extra people.  Apparently, just not enough.  Although, from where are all these extra people supposed to come?  There seems to be this belief that there are thousands of reservists out there just chomping at the bit and ready to jump in for this sort of thing (If you call them, they will come?).  This just isn't the case.  Specific skill sets are needed for this sort of work.  You can't hire just anyone.

There are; and they did hire almost anyone.  They trained them on what was required.

On another note, this audit is not something newly created for PIL.  This audit has always been done for every member releasing from the CF (PIL is essentially a release benefit).  PIL has only created the requirement to do a massive amount of files all at once.  It is to confirm that the member has been paid correctly over the course of their career and includes a look at all allowances, rates of pay and leave.  It's the final opportunity to ensure that everything is in order as once the member leaves, it can be difficult to track them down to recover overpayments OR underpayments (yes, those happen too).  Could it have been done better?  Probably.  It is beyond me why we don't conduct periodic audits over the course of a member's career to make it go quicker at the end, but then again, they never asked me (although I did mention this to DMPAP once over a beer).  The staff answer is that they never saw a huge need to do so because at one time, it only took a few weeks to do the audit, but with staff cuts over the years (getting rid of that HQ bloat), the processing time has gotten longer...

Not to mention that the Fin Clk and Admin Clk Trades were merged and now neither knows the others job to the level necessary to fully run an OR efficiently and effectively, especially when they are the only RMS Clk in a unit.  I am sure, had we still had Fin Clks, the PIL would probably not become such an administrative Jug F ______ .

 

[Navy_Pete]

I guess my mind just boggles at the level of effort (and associated cost) for auditing all 45k files.

They have already put all the money aside for the PILs in the form of a PAYE, so they have accepted their initial calculations are more or less correct, which they probably have done a sanity check on anyway.  Is there any particular reason they could not have farmed this out to the individual BOR teams for the final audit?  The time in could have been confirmed by the divisional system, with a pretty simple process to fix any discrepancies, and the payments processed at the units.

They could have done a central check on anything over a certain value (to confirm the rate of pay makes sense), but this current process is a bit excessive.

The general level of effort we put into auditing things numerous times drives me crazy.  Don't doubt the folks doing the work are working hard at it, but it seems like unrequired work based on poor high level decisions.  (insert clever comment about that being a common theme here).

 

[Tibbson]

I guess my mind just boggles at the level of effort (and associated cost) for auditing all 45k files.

They have already put all the money aside for the PILs in the form of a PAYE, so they have accepted their initial calculations are more or less correct, which they probably have done a sanity check on anyway.  Is there any particular reason they could not have farmed this out to the individual BOR teams for the final audit?  The time in could have been confirmed by the divisional system, with a pretty simple process to fix any discrepancies, and the payments processed at the units.

They could have done a central check on anything over a certain value (to confirm the rate of pay makes sense), but this current process is a bit excessive.

The general level of effort we put into auditing things numerous times drives me crazy.  Don't doubt the folks doing the work are working hard at it, but it seems like unrequired work based on poor high level decisions.  (insert clever comment about that being a common theme here).

I'm no RMS expert but when I think of the following it starts to become clearer to me why they did not just "farm it out":

- those members with broken service;
- those members with prior reserve service, keeping in mind for some of us it was quite some time ago when reserve gratuities and/or may or may not even have existed. 
- reg force members working with reserve Units who may not have the capability to do the audit and verification properly.
- reg force members working with small or distributed Units.  My own Unit consists of about 200 persons in 5 locations across the country.  Detachment wise we don't have a clerk and the two clerks we DO have are located with our HQ and are part time JPSU augmentees.
- members who are deployed or otherwise posted out of country during some or all of this process
- members who signed up to cash out and then, for what ever reason, released during the process.

I could see where there are just too many variables to make this work by farming it out.  Our spending is under so much (too much) scrutiny as it is, I can just see how it would have looked if we had overspent by 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars for something that could have been done right in the first place. 

 

[PuckChaser]

- those members with broken service;
- those members with prior reserve service, keeping in mind for some of us it was quite some time ago when reserve gratuities and/or may or may not even have existed. 
- reg force members working with reserve Units who may not have the capability to do the audit and verification properly.
- reg force members working with small or distributed Units.  My own Unit consists of about 200 persons in 5 locations across the country.  Detachment wise we don't have a clerk and the two clerks we DO have are located with our HQ and are part time JPSU augmentees.
- members who are deployed or otherwise posted out of country during some or all of this process
- members who signed up to cash out and then, for what ever reason, released during the process.

That sounds like a small fraction of the total number of files. I have prior reserve service (no broken time, and my ROR simply printed out my RPSR and my current RegF pay guide. What Ottawa needs to look at for my file is beyond me. Do I have secret time hidden somewhere? Or maybe a special pay entry that is only visible to NDHQ? No. Yes there are reservists with time in that was before online pay systems, and they're the unique 1% that would need PiL Ottawa to sort it out.

A special team is for special cases. Vast majority of members should have gotten their paperwork completed at home unit, vetted by Chief Clerk, and filled for payment. No need for quadruple auditting for someone getting under $10K.

 

[stokerwes]

Even after 25+ years it continues to baffle me on how the audits need to be audited by the auditors and then audited again by another special team formed.
I agree the "Tiger Team" ??, should only be required for special circumstances. The majority of personnel should be pretty straight forward.
Yet because all files are in Ottawa the special cases are appearing to hold up the straight forward cases, I may be wrong but that is my perception. To add to this  some unit BOR's somehow found it prudent to hold files until given direction, or until the final day of the election period, on when to send them to Ottawa. I can only hope that there will be some lessons learned from this as this process will still be in effect for personnel that chose to receive their PIL/severance upon release.
Saying that it may take up to  three years shouldn't mean that it is going to take three years, it should be the exception.
But having said all of this it is always easier to stand back at look for faults in anything. Being directly involved is always a different perspective.
I hope that the few people that are diligently working on this project continue to keep up the good work and get done as soon as they are able to.


Until then I'll not so patiently waiting for my PIL.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'm no RMS expert but when I think of the following it starts to become clearer to me why they did not just "farm it out":

- those members with broken service;
- those members with prior reserve service, keeping in mind for some of us it was quite some time ago when reserve gratuities and/or may or may not even have existed. 
- reg force members working with reserve Units who may not have the capability to do the audit and verification properly.
- reg force members working with small or distributed Units.  My own Unit consists of about 200 persons in 5 locations across the country.  Detachment wise we don't have a clerk and the two clerks we DO have are located with our HQ and are part time JPSU augmentees.
- members who are deployed or otherwise posted out of country during some or all of this process
- members who signed up to cash out and then, for what ever reason, released during the process.

I could see where there are just too many variables to make this work by farming it out.  Our spending is under so much (too much) scrutiny as it is, I can just see how it would have looked if we had overspent by 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars for something that could have been done right in the first place.

Every unit has a URS.  You're looking for the ways it would NOT have worked vice the reasons it would have.

If the clerks at my Sqn and URS aren't able to handle a PIL payment task, should I trust they can handle any other admin?

Comparing this to say, a maintenance task, it would be like sending all veh's to 3rd line maintenance *because 1st and 2nd line might screw it up*. 

 

[PuckChaser]

Comparing this to say, a maintenance task, it would be like sending all veh's to 3rd line maintenance *because 1st and 2nd line might screw it up*.

Perfect example.

 

[Pusser]

Every unit has a URS.  You're looking for the ways it would NOT have worked vice the reasons it would have.

If the clerks at my Sqn and URS aren't able to handle a PIL payment task, should I trust they can handle any other admin?

Comparing this to say, a maintenance task, it would be like sending all veh's to 3rd line maintenance *because 1st and 2nd line might screw it up*.

I would disagree.  First line does 1st line maintenance.  Third line does 3rd line maintenance.  PIL is akin to 3rd line.  In terms I'm familiar with, the pay office does 1st line stuff like the day to day handling of pay records, payments, etc in the same way that the ship's company does 1st line maintenance and repair in the ship.  The PIL is doing 3rd line like stuff in the same way that the Fleet Maintenance Facility or even a civilian contractor does a refit.

Auditing is not as simple as reading a file and checking the arithmetic.  Every line has to be compared to the regulations (some of which have changed over the years, so they have to ensure that it was applied correctly IAW with the regulation of the day.  The audit also involves everything that can be calculated in terms of money (e.g. leave), not just pay.  It reminds me of a file I once had to work on where I had to research eight different regulations that had each changed at least three times during the 15 year period in question - all of which affected how the member was supposed to be paid.  As I recall, it took me about a month to sort it all out and I wasn't working on anything else at the time.

Maybe the whole process has been handled badly, but it is certainly not as simple and quick a process as some have made it out to be.  Keep in mind that hiring more people to work the files costs money - tax dollars (remember we're all taxpayers) that could be used for other things.  Keep also in mind that the government was under no obligation to pay it out at all at this time.  They simply could have said that we all stop accumulating credit for it, but we would still have to wait to retirement to collect it.  Perhaps we should be rather grateful that we all have the opportunity to collect what is essentially a windfall and invest it and hopefully turn a profit.  Before last year, we weren't expecting it at all.  So what's the rush?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I would disagree.  First line does 1st line maintenance.  Third line does 3rd line maintenance.  PIL is akin to 3rd line.  In terms I'm familiar with, the pay office does 1st line stuff like the day to day handling of pay records, payments, etc in the same way that the ship's company does 1st line maintenance and repair in the ship.  The PIL is doing 3rd line like stuff in the same way that the Fleet Maintenance Facility or even a civilian contractor does a refit.

But not ALL maint is 3rd line and not ALL the PIL payments over 50% had to go to "3rd line" IMO. 

 

[dapaterson]

But not ALL maint is 3rd line and not ALL the PIL payments over 50% had to go to "3rd line" IMO.

Correct.  Planners assessed the situation and put in place mechanisms to reduce the immediate audit work required, taking on an acceptable level of risk.

At then end of the day any payment must be made IAW the FAA.  The PiL plan permitted easy ones to be handled at the local level.

 

[PuckChaser]

Where was severance calculated prior to its removal, the base release section?

 

[dapaterson]

Where was severance calculated prior to its removal, the base release section?

Severance would be calculated at the base, then audited in Ottawa prior to being paid.

In other words, exactly the same system used for the PiL.

 

[PuckChaser]

Severance would be calculated at the base, then audited in Ottawa prior to being paid.

In other words, exactly the same system used for the PiL.

But with the same level of staffing used for normal FY releases to process the entire CF. Good call, NDHQ.