CANFORGEN on Pay and PIL

[technophile]

Never once did I say I treated anyone like crap. Sure I'm bitching online, but I don't stand outside the OR stamping my fist and demand service. 
I do my job, I expect everyone to do theirs.  To the clerks, I should just be a number on a page, and everyone is to be treated the same.  To think that I need to make anyone smile when they read my name in order to get my paperwork processed in a timely manner is ridiculous.

In my line of work, I don't get to choose who I provide expert service to and who I don't. Regardless of my opinion of them.

 

[Teager]

Never did I say that everyone elses paper work would not get done in a timely fashion. At the end of the day a clerks job is to support the member and get the paper work processed. People do do there jobs but if you develop a rapport with your clerks chances are things just go more quickly and smoothly. If you talk with them and you start to learn about each other maybe they know something that is very high importance to you that needs to get done more quickly then normal but if you hadn't developed that rapport it would just be another piece of paper work to be processed sitting in the pile.

I've been on the combat arms side of things and have seen the s*** pumps and guess what they get poorer treatment but when in combat or in the field we still have there back and we know they have ours.

In any line of work some politeness and cheerfulness can go a long way and makes business run a lot smoother for both parties.

The "do it regardless because its your job" attitude doesn't go very far. Yes, i'll do it but now you've put me in a more negative mood and if it doesn't need to be done right away chances are it won't. You may think differently but thats just how the game is played.

 

[OldSolduer]

so, I need to butter up the clerks in order for them to process my paperwork ?  Interesting.    The sad part is, I am sure you are not joking.  Real professional.

And you are?

What does it hurt to be polite and courteous?

 

[DAA]

I used to teach my Clerks, regardless of how the customer presents themself, politeness and respect to that person goes much further than you can imagine.  Listen to what they have to say and then help them where you can.  They are NOT pissed at you, they are pissed at an idea they have in their head.  Take the extra time to talk to them, explain things to them and try to make your answers clear and helpful.  Never let them leave the office without an answer that you yourself would want to hear or know if you were sitting on the other side of the desk/counter.

I had a Cpl who said "If I did that for everyone that came in, I would not get any work done".  I responded by saying "try it on one of your repeat customers and see what effect it has".

The Cpl came back to me a week later and said "I tried it like you said but now, everyone coming into the OR, is asking to talk to me".........

It caught on pretty quick and next thing you know, there was no one coming into the OR, because everyone had the answers and help that they deserved the first time around.

So if your PIL or whatever is not being processed, it's not the Clerks fault.  They are only following directions from up above as to what is or what isn't a priority......

Edit - if my CoC told me PIL was not high on the priority list, I would tell them that "Money is always a priority, whether or not you consider it to be a bonus.  It tends to have an adverse effect on morale, so let's just get this done and out of the way".  If they can't figure that one out, then their head is in the clouds........

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don't get it.  I was told from the very beginning of this that the pay our for the 100%'ers would take some time.  Were people told different ? 

We are taught from BRT up that you should never spend money you don't have, YET, and don't use allowances in financial decision making; have people forgot about this ? 

Fill out the paper work, submit it on time or before, and sit back and forget about it until it that was and still is my COA. 

 

[DAA]

I don't get it.  I was told from the very beginning of this that the pay our for the 100%'ers would take some time.  Were people told different ? 

We are taught from BRT up that you should never spend money you don't have, YET, and don't use allowances in financial decision making; have people forgot about this ? 

Fill out the paper work, submit it on time or before, and sit back and forget about it until it that was and still is my COA.

You are entirely correct, payout for the 50% plus crowd will take more time!  This is all about the "less than 50%er's" and the fact that their submissions have been staffed at local level, forwarded, approved by HICON and the approval for payment has been given back to their local supporting orderly room.

So the paperwork was filled out on time, they have sat back and now the people they staffed it to have the approval to action it.  But it's not being actioned.

It's kind of like, applying for leave, having it approved but then when the time comes being told you can't take your leave, because the OR doesn't have the time to process it.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I am never rude with people that are not rude to me.  I will always try to take 2 minutes to ask how the person is doing and chat about things before going into business. 

This is not on the clerks or even the units Log Os.  It's very much a leadership and system issue.  Leaders are sometimes afraid to make unpopular decisions that are going to maybe negatively affect the morale of 1 group but increase the overall morale of the organization.  Here's an example. 

We do night flying.  The night shift for technicians get into work at 1730.  That's for the full week.  Every support organization on base or at the units close at the latest 1600.  So no service possible for that shift unless the come in early and have to spend 10+ hours at work in order to do some admin before work.  How about shifting the schedule for the support units too?  Not until 2AM but let's say from 1200-2000.  Night flying is known ahead of time and is a base wide thing.

The organization, in my years in the military has become more and more micromanaging.  To the point everything has to be vetted by the leadership.  It has become "procedures" over the years that people will blame for inefficiencies.  There is no more trust in the training and judgment of subordinates and in consequence, delegation of authority is a rarity.  Both in the operational and admin sides of the house.

Example:  Generals are making tactical decisions in theater.  CAOC is hooked up to Predator/Rover feeds all day long.  Yup.  Technology is great, however you still need to trust your men.  Give the tactical leaders a mission and an intent and let them run with the plan.  If it succeeds, reward them.  If it fails, make them responsible.

Halifax Tar:  Because you are told something before hand doesn't make it right.  You could be told that from now on, every claim is going to be a minimum of 1 year for processing (that's essentially what the PiL is).  Does that make it right?  Sitting back and forgetting about it is the way that will make the system go deeper and deeper into the hole it's digging up now.   

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Is it time to go back to when the trade was split between finances and the rest of the clerk world?

 

[Teager]

I agree with everything there Max. Since your on a shift schedule there should be at least one or two clerks that overlap into night shifts so that you guys have a chance to get your admin done. You should propose this idea up through your CoC and explain the reasons. You might actualy get what your asking for and if not well at least your no worse off.

 

[garb811]

We do night flying.  The night shift for technicians get into work at 1730.  That's for the full week.  Every support organization on base or at the units close at the latest 1600.  So no service possible for that shift unless the come in early and have to spend 10+ hours at work in order to do some admin before work.  How about shifting the schedule for the support units too?  Not until 2AM but let's say from 1200-2000.  Night flying is known ahead of time and is a base wide thing.

Contrary to your small view of the world, the aviation community is not the only ones who work weird and wonderful hours and the rest of that world gets along just fine.

But, just to humour you, how many people are actually working these shifts and, out of that comparatively small number, how many actually really need to do Admin during that shift (when they really should be doing the job they are scheduled to be doing anyways instead of spending time doing admin) as opposed to normal opening hours?  And knowing that, on the very, very small chance that someone just might walk into the OR to conduct admin means a clerk should be there "just in case" which means they are unavailable to serve clients when the vast majority of the customers actually attend?  Reality is this is not an issue for anyone who has any ability to organize their life at the level expected of a kid in Grade 6 particularly since, as you point out, the times there is night flying is known ahead of time. 

To be clear, I know of what I speak having lived the life of working 12 hour shifts on a rotating basis for a good part of my early and middle career.  I have also been posted to Embassies where my Admin support was completely out of synch with my working day and I got along just fine through some creative thinking and adult problem solving skills.  Don't look for a problem where there really isn't one just because you think it makes you sound like you're "looking out for the troops".

 

[SupersonicMax]

Contrary to your small view of the world, the aviation community is not the only ones who work weird and wonderful hours and the rest of that world gets along just fine.

Have I said anything like that?  No, I gave 1 example I am familiar with.  Given I am in the RCAF, well I gave an Air Force example..

But, just to humour you, how many people are actually working these shifts and, out of that comparatively small number, how many actually really need to do Admin during that shift (when they really should be doing the job they are scheduled to be doing anyways instead of spending time doing admin) as opposed to normal opening hours?  And knowing that, on the very, very small chance that someone just might walk into the OR to conduct admin means a clerk should be there "just in case" which means they are unavailable to serve clients when the vast majority of the customers actually attend?  Reality is this is not an issue for anyone who has any ability to organize their life at the level expected of a kid in Grade 6 particularly since, as you point out, the times there is night flying is known ahead of time. 

Actually, the whole operational side of the house is on shifts of some sort.  When the base does night flying, the whole operational side moves it's schedule right by 6-8 hours.  I believe it would be worthwhile moving the support schedule right as well.  Not only for giving time for admin (which by the way should be done during your working hours, not on your own time).  Also for making them part of the whole "kill" chain.  Shifting the focus to operations.  There is nothing more frustrating for the operational folks than seeing support folks operationally disconnected.  Support the operations.  Not the other way around.  We have a no fail mission.  We need support to execute that no fail mission.  All our training is geared towards that mission.  Why should the support be different?  Because they need an 8-4 schedule?

To be clear, I know of what I speak having lived the life of working 12 hour shifts on a rotating basis for a good part of my early and middle career.  I have also been posted to Embassies where my Admin support was completely out of synch with my working day and I got along just fine through some creative thinking and adult problem solving skills.  Don't look for a problem where there really isn't one just because you think it makes you sound like you're "looking out for the troops".

Good for you.  You were one of few people dealing with a very specific and acute issue.  This issue is actually affecting hundreds of people on this base.  Why is the onus always placed on the member and almost never with the system to provide sufficient support?  What is it, if there is something wrong with your pay, it's your responsibility, your claims, your schedule, your training,  you quals....  Right?  Are we providing our people (our most important ressource) enough support?  I'd argue that we are not and when all the small things add up, it turns people off from this line of work and they look elsewhere.  HR, in my experience, is not the forte of the CF. 

 

[Monsoon]

Actually, the whole operational side of the house is on shifts of some sort.  When the base does night flying, the whole operational side moves it's schedule right by 6-8 hours.  I believe it would be worthwhile moving the support schedule right as well.  Not only for giving time for admin (which by the way should be done during your working hours, not on your own time).  Also for making them part of the whole "kill" chain.  Shifting the focus to operations.  There is nothing more frustrating for the operational folks than seeing support folks operationally disconnected.  Support the operations.  Not the other way around.  We have a no fail mission.  We need support to execute that no fail mission.  All our training is geared towards that mission.  Why should the support be different?  Because they need an 8-4 schedule?

That sounds like a fairly compelling case. Have you put it together (with references and supporting examples from other units/environments) into a briefing note for your unit to pass up to the BComd?

 

[SupersonicMax]

I did.  It is somewhere up the chain I imagine.

 

[AirDet]

For a change, I'd like to weigh in on the RMS clerk's behalf. Our OR is staffed by a great bunch and I'm sure that's typical of the majority of them. There aren't enough of them though for the ever increasing levels of bureaucracy that's piled upon them and all the CF.

This PIL for instance should be a straight forward job. Even if 100% of the CF applied for it the timeline should've been short as with our cousins in the RCMP or CRA. However, we have so many more layers of checks and balances then we did 30 years ago when I joined. Factor in the fact that the RMS trade has been shrinking and you're getting to see a systemic problem.

From my little window of the CF world I see treasury board this and treasury board that. In many cases our old CFAOs have been replaced by DAODs that link to multiple treasury documents. The layers just keep coming.

What I'd like to know is when is someone going to clue in and reduce the levels of redundancy to only a few?

 

[BinRat55]

It's kind of like, applying for leave, having it approved but then when the time comes being told you can't take your leave, because the OR doesn't have the time to process it.

I like that analogy!

BTW, for those who are actually tracking (not berating, condescending, holier-than-thou peoples) - I'm in Gagetown, a 50%er and nothing yet. Close though!

 

[ARMY_101]

The CF has to be the worst organisation at admin.  Waiting for claims for 6 MONTHS is not acceptable.  Neither is waiting for 3 years for you PiL.

Sounds like a unit problem. I've already mentioned earlier that my unit sent all our PIL forms to the PIL team in Ottawa, and they/we have since been paid out. Simple as that. Have your unit get the PIL data to Ottawa and it will be sorted out quickly.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sounds like a unit problem. I've already mentioned earlier that my unit sent all our PIL forms to the PIL team in Ottawa, and they/we have since been paid out. Simple as that. Have your unit get the PIL data to Ottawa and it will be sorted out quickly.

Surly you don't include the 100%ers in this statement ?

 

[BinRat55]

Simple as that. Have your unit get the PIL data to Ottawa and it will be sorted out quickly.

Really? Gee, I don't think our clerks here got that particular directive. Ottawa you say? Simple, huh? What a needless thread this has been when the answer was right there in front of us the whole time. Thanks ARMY_101 - I might just get looked at for promotion for sharing this info with my OR - Imagine what my OC will say when I march right into the OR and demand they send stuff to Ottawa - I'm a free thinker i'll say...

Too much?

Sheesh.

 

[ARMY_101]

Surly you don't include the 100%ers in this statement ?

All of our members who elected any amount of PIL had their files passed to the PIL team months ago. The files are now with them, so from our unit's side of things, we've done our part.

 

[ARMY_101]

Really? Gee, I don't think our clerks here got that particular directive. Ottawa you say? Simple, huh? What a needless thread this has been when the answer was right there in front of us the whole time. Thanks ARMY_101 - I might just get looked at for promotion for sharing this info with my OR - Imagine what my OC will say when I march right into the OR and demand they send stuff to Ottawa - I'm a free thinker i'll say...

Too much?

Sheesh.

My point is to look at specific units and their work ethics (or lack thereof) rather than painting an entire trade as lazy, selfish, and focused on what's for dinner rather than helping their members get paid.