CANFORGEN on Pay and PIL

[dapaterson]

Why am I not surprised.  I just had a look at my MPRR and someone back in March, unbenounced to me, made the "clerical error" of entering the location of my Spouse as being in Fredericton NB, two provinces away. 

So are you claiming SE from March onwards then?  >

 

[George Wallace]

If the CF is saying I am, I should.  :nod:      ;D

 

[dapaterson]

More seriously, there is an audit trail for every transaction in HRMS.  You should be able to ask who made that input, and request corrective action be taken to ensure they do not screw up other records (for example, suspend their input privileges until they undergo remedial training).

 

[bridges]

Not only that, but depending on the nature of the error there may be someone whose spouse actually IS in Fredericton but now isn't reflected as such, so they could be adversely affected too.

 

[aahenry]

Good Day

Thanks for your posts. I read in CBI 204.40 and on the calculation of eligible service document that it says " Most recent date of enrolment" Can this mean that because my most recent date of enrolment is when I transfered to Reg force, 17 May 2001, that my previous time in the Res 01 May 95 - 16 May 2001 is not eligible?

Thanks

 

[Zoomie]

The official definition of enrollment according to the CF is when you took your oath or swore allegiance, I know that I didn't swear another oath when I CT'd from PRes to RegF.  I never enrolled into the RegF, I transferred into it. 

 

[dapaterson]

Good Day

Thanks for your posts. I read in CBI 204.40 and on the calculation of eligible service document that it says " Most recent date of enrolment" Can this mean that because my most recent date of enrolment is when I transfered to Reg force, 17 May 2001, that my previous time in the Res 01 May 95 - 16 May 2001 is not eligible?

Thanks

This is a well-known issue; the computers that ran off the reports used the date for the start of your service in your current CF component.  If you request the payment in lieu, include a memo to your OR stating that you have prior Reserve Force service and requesting that they ad your Reserev MPRR to your file.

Anyone with Res service (whether they are currently Reg or Res) will have their file audited before payment, regardless of the amount they take.

 

[Sig_Des]

So, I received my calculation (out of whack of course, due to prior time served), and am aware that my file will go to Ottawa.

Here's a question someone in the admin system could maybe answer. As of the date that they calculated, I was an Acting/Lacking MCpl (had been for about a year). Therefore, I was calculated at Cpl.

I'm of the mind that if you're being paid a certain rank, doing the job at that rank, and paying taxes based off the income, shouldn't you be paid out at that rank, especially if getting the qualification to be substantive is for reasons out of your hand (careers slow to courseload, training system backlog, etc)?

It's not a huge difference really, but I'd like to hear some opinions.

 

[dapaterson]

So, I received my calculation (out of whack of course, due to prior time served), and am aware that my file will go to Ottawa.

Here's a question someone in the admin system could maybe answer. As of the date that they calculated, I was an Acting/Lacking MCpl (had been for about a year). Therefore, I was calculated at Cpl.

I'm of the mind that if you're being paid a certain rank, doing the job at that rank, and paying taxes based off the income, shouldn't you be paid out at that rank, especially if getting the qualification to be substantive is for reasons out of your hand (careers slow to courseload, training system backlog, etc)?

It's not a huge difference really, but I'd like to hear some opinions.

The CBI, as approved by Treasury Board, states that if you elect to take the payment in lieu, it will be paid out at your substantive rank. (CBI 204.40(6) has the formula).

If you take in on release, and on release you hold an acting rank, the same rule applies (CBI 204.40(8 )).

 

[comicnut]

I was at the PIL conference.

To answer a few questions here:

Many estimates were done using the most recent enrolment date yes.
However all CF Service time is eligible....but minus any non-eligible time (punishments, NES, EDT, LWOP etc) and minus any time that has already been paid out.
So if you were in the Reserves and already received your Gratuity when you left then that time won't count.

Another person asked about acting lacking.  The benefit is paid based on substantive rank...period!  If you are acting/lacking and paid at a higher rank it does not matter it is based on substantive.    If you feel it is unfair...nobody is forcing you to take the payout now, you can elect to take the money when you release.  That way you will maxamize your payout for any other incentives and promotions you may earn. 

These are not my opinions but come from the information from the seminar in Ottawa.

 

[Sig_Des]

Another person asked about acting lacking.  The benefit is paid based on substantive rank...period!  If you are acting/lacking and paid at a higher rank it does not matter it is based on substantive.  Remember that you will not elect right now though, you do not elect until 14 Dec - 13 Mar 2013.  So you have until then to become substantive.  If you still feel it is unfair...nobody is forcing you to take the payout now, you can elect to take the money when you release.  That way you will maxamize your payout for any other incentives and promotions you may earn.

So if someone who were Acting lacking at the time of the calculation were to be substantive by the time they elect, they'll recalculate?

 

[comicnut]

"Remember that you will not elect right now though, you do not elect until 14 Dec - 13 Mar 2013.  So you have until then to become substantive"  This statement was incorrect, I apolagize.

Yes you are kind of correct, lol.

I say it that way because what you received was not a calculation, only an estimate.

The administers of the PIL know that there are many people whom have wrong estimates, particularily those with previous service.  All that is required is for your BOR to submit the substantiating documents (in your case course report) with your file.

The BOR's will be informed of how to assemble said file.

 

[comicnut]

I will also add that there is one benefit if there is no break in service between different components.

If you were say paid out 17 years for your 17 1/2 years in the Reserves and then joined the Regs without a break in service the 1/2 year will carry forward into your new payout.
If there was a break, then that 1/2 year in the Reserves is lost.

Another benefit that has come out, some people may not be aware, is that we have gone back to the old way of calculating eligible time.
It used to be if you were effective all year, then that counted as 1 year, no matter how much you got paid.
Then it was changed so that your severance was based upon how much you paraded.

For this PIL roll-out they have gone back to the old method so that will enhance the benefit for many Reservists.

 

[Rheostatic]

So if someone who were Acting lacking at the time of the calculation were to be substantive by the time they elect, they'll recalculate?

No, they will use the substantive rank you held on 1 Mar 12.

26. What rate of pay will be used to determine the payment in lieu (PiL) of Canadian Forces Severance Pay (CFSP)?
The payment in lieu (PiL) of a severance benefit will be based on the CF member’s substantive rank and pay increment for the following effective dates:
• 1 October 2011, Colonel and above or Lieutenant-Colonel Legal and above;
• date of promotion if promoted substantively to Colonel or Lieutenant-Colonel Legal between 1 October 2011 and 29 February 2012; and
• 1 March 2012, NCMs and all other Officers.

I'd suggest everyone read this FAQ, as it goes into much more detail than the SISIP slides:
http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dpsp/pdf/english/pi-qa_e.pdf

 

[comicnut]

Yes, I didn't say that correctly initially.

When you elect to get paid out now it is what your substantive rank is, as of 1 Mar 2012.

If you elect to wait until you release then it is calculated at your substative rank when you release.

 

[dapaterson]

SISIP has posted dates for briefings on many bases.  Some have already occured.  You can see the list at:

https://public.cfpsa.com/en/AboutUs/SISIPFS/Documents/PiL_Briefings_(Sept_19).pdf

Note that scertain bases are considered "satellites" of others on this list; if your base isn't listed, look at some of the bases close to yours.  For example, North Bay sessions are listed under Petawawa.

 

[comicnut]

Here are some other main points:

1. To inform all members not to elect before the election date.

2. Any elections signed before the election time or received before the election time will be considered void.

3. Any election that is made during election period is irrevocable no matter what.  So members must ensure they have all the facts.  It was heavily suggested that they talk to their financial counselor before making a decision.

 

[McFarlane]

I have a quick question on this.

I received my election papers in the mail last week, but it didn't inlcude all of my time. 

As of March 2012, I have been a Reg F Mbr for 5.29 yrs, which is what is on my election paperwork.  However, I was a mbr of the PRes (Not on ED&T or NES) for 1.56 yrs prior to this.  It was a Component Transfer, with uninterrupted service in Nov 2006. 

I looked hard through the CANFORGEN as well as CBI 204.40 - CFSP, and the only exceptions I found there were:

“eligible service” means a member’s number of years of service after the member’s most recent date of enrolment but does not include any years of:

(a) YPB (see definition);

(b) service in the Supplementary Reserve, Cadet Organizations Administration and Training Service and Canadian Rangers, other than years that the member has served on Class “B” Reserve Service or Class “C” Reserve Service;

(c) exemption from Primary Reserve duty and training, other than years of exemption under QR&O articles 9.09 (Exemption from Duty and Training – Maternity Purposes) and 9.10 (Exemption from Duty and Training – Parental Purposes);

(d) Primary Reserve non-effective strength, as determined by or under the authority of the Chief of the Defence Staff;

(e) leave without pay granted under QR&O articles 16.25 (Leave Without Pay and Allowances);

(f) a limitation of payments under QR&O article 203.20 (Officers – Regular Force – Limitation of Payments);

(g) absence — without leave or as a deserter — for which a forfeiture has been imposed under QR&O article 208.30 (Forfeitures – Officers and Non-commissioned Members); and

(h) a forfeiture that has been imposed under QR&O article 208.31 (Forfeitures, Deductions and Cancellations – When No Service Rendered). (service admissible)"

Ref: CBI 204.40 - Canadian Forces Severance Pay

None of which applies to my situation as I've been able to decipher it.  I did buy back my pension as well, if that makes any difference.

Anyone know of a reason I would not be eligible for the PRes time? 

Thanks in advance.

 

[dapaterson]

You are eligible for your PRes time.  The paperwork was generated based on your start date with the Reg F due to the way the CF's personnel databases are structured.

Your unit/ship OR should be able to assist - you'll likely need them to run off a copy of your Reserve MPRR.  They should have instructions on setting up temporary dockets for pers in your situation.

 

[DAA]

You are eligible for your PRes time. Your unit/ship OR should be able to assist - you'll likely need them to run off a copy of your Reserve MPRR.

What about people with YTEP time back in the 80's?  Got one thrown at me today and had no idea what to say....  Case in point - guy joined in 83 under YTEP, then over to the Reg F, then retired from the Reg F and received Severance Pay for 26 years on transfer to the PRes (ie; full-time Class B) and received their PIL Estimate which was just over 2 years.  So they are now asking about the one year of YTEP (ie; Class C) back in 83 which was not factored into the severance pay calculation when they retired in 2010.

I am sure there are many Reg F pers out there who joined under this program which are not being credited with the additional year of service and documentation on the Pers File may be a tad bit thin....