Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training

[Jarnhamar]

About 20 Canadian Armed Forces members suffered frostbite, and some required hospitalization, following a military training session near Petawawa, Ont., held earlier this month in extremely cold weather. 

On Jan. 17-18, nearly 120 soldiers with the Royal Canadian Dragoons participated in basic winter survival training while the temperature dropped to –31 C. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canadian-soldiers-suffer-frostbite-during-winter-training-1.4994767


1/6th of the company getting frostbite, that's gotta sting.
8)

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I wonder what happened here. I recall taking part in numerous winterexs as late as the mid-1990s in conditions that cold and do not recall ever seeing even one cold injury.

Is the kit lacking or have we lost the institutional knowledge on how to operate safely in extreme winter conditions?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Likely a bit of both

 

[mariomike]

Is the kit lacking or have we lost the institutional knowledge on how to operate safely in extreme winter conditions?

For reference to the discussion,

Frostbite - how to avoid?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/127524.0

OP:

Frostbite - how to avoid it in any weather and circumstance?

Can someone please sum up all the things one have to know and need to take care of in order to never get frostbite?

 

[Remius]

I wonder what happened here. I recall taking part in numerous winterexs as late as the mid-1990s in conditions that cold and do not recall ever seeing even one cold injury.

Is the kit lacking or have we lost the institutional knowledge on how to operate safely in extreme winter conditions?

Could be bad leadership, poor supervision, inexperience...

How green were these guys?  How many cold weather exercises in arctic tents have these particular armoured guys done that were that cold?

did they have the right kit?  Some troops seem to think combat boots and NEOs are ok for this type of thing.  is there still a mukluk shortage? 

Not all of the details were provided in the article.

 

[Rifleman62]

I believe the wind chill table is still current.

 

[medicineman]

op:

I wonder how this SIR went over on the CDS' desk...

MM

 

[RelentlessTsunami]

I wonder what happened here. I recall taking part in numerous winterexs as late as the mid-1990s in conditions that cold and do not recall ever seeing even one cold injury.

Is the kit lacking or have we lost the institutional knowledge on how to operate safely in extreme winter conditions?

Since it was a bug out situation and not planned ex there's lots of opportunities for guys to not have their proper kit on hand, not be properly hydrated (maybe hungover from the night before), sleep deprived, etc...

I think it's a leadership failure because they should have been checking over these guys before they set off to ensure they were in good enough condition and properly equipped to accomplish the task. Then appropriately discipline those who weren't... not make them ruck out anyway.

 

[observor 69]

I thought "Maj. Kevin Wong" did a good job addressing the incident while saying nothing that would answer the obvious questions ref equipment and training. See video at link.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canadian-soldiers-suffer-frostbite-during-winter-training-1.4994767

 

[RCDtpr]

I’ve been on winter warfare exes with the regiment (not THAT long ago) that were colder.  That one year in Ramore when it was like -52 with the windchill comes to mind, and we didn’t have any cold related casualties that I can recall in any winter ex ever.

What I can see being the issue here, is if bug out kit lists are on the same principle they were when I was still in the regiment, we were to have no more or no less kit than what was on the list come inspection time.  As such, I followed the kit list to a T regardless of whether or not I agreed with what was on it from a practical standpoint.

We were never bugged out and sent to the field with that kit list, so it never really became an issue, but if that’s the case here then to me it’s a failure at all supervisory levels to 1) not ensure the kit list was practical and effective and 2) not allow individuals to pack additional kit if they so choose.

Not saying that is what happened here, but my time in the regiment most higher ups weren’t exactly open to change and suggestions, and I can’t see that culture changing dramatically in the last 7 years.

Whether it be the MCpls, Snr NCO’s, the officers, or all of them, the troops were failed at some level of leadership.........I’m curious as to who it was.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Since it was a bug out situation and not planned ex there's lots of opportunities for guys to not have their proper kit on hand, not be properly hydrated (maybe hungover from the night before), sleep deprived, etc...

I think it's a leadership failure because they should have been checking over these guys before they set off to ensure they were in good enough condition and properly equipped to accomplish the task. Then appropriately discipline those who weren't... not make them ruck out anyway.

The first rule of training troops in extreme cold weather: have  a great big hanger/ school gym etc handy, just in case....

 

[Jarnhamar]

Since it was a bug out situation and not planned ex there's lots of opportunities for guys to not have their proper kit on hand, not be properly hydrated (maybe hungover from the night before), sleep deprived, etc...

I think it's a leadership failure because they should have been checking over these guys before they set off to ensure they were in good enough condition and properly equipped to accomplish the task. Then appropriately discipline those who weren't... not make them ruck out anyway.

On the other frosty hand corporals are NCOs, but, we treat them like menials. Mopping concrete floors, garbage sweeps, shit jobs. It seems like we're taking more and more authority and responsibility away from our NCO core.

What are the chances the mcpls or sergeants had time (read permission) to take their crews out and do their own training?

Guessing they got a check in the box basic winter warfare course. Other opportunities to train were taken up with IBTS and  the latest online course that 'OMG needs to be done'.

12km March and an over nighter? Lack of march discipline and dumb night time tasks.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I thought "Maj. Kevin Wong" did a good job addressing the incident while saying nothing that would answer the obvious questions ref equipment and training. See video at link.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canadian-soldiers-suffer-frostbite-during-winter-training-1.4994767

Was thinking the same thing. He's good.

 

[OldSolduer]

About 20 Canadian Armed Forces members suffered frostbite, and some required hospitalization, following a military training session near Petawawa, Ont., held earlier this month in extremely cold weather.

On Jan. 17-18, nearly 120 soldiers with the Royal Canadian Dragoons participated in basic winter survival training while the temperature dropped to –31 C.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canadian-soldiers-suffer-frostbite-during-winter-training-1.4994767


1/6th of the company getting frostbite, that's gotta sting.
8)

That’s a platoon rendered in effective.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The first rule of training troops in extreme cold weather: have  a great big hanger/ school gym etc handy, just in case....

Not that I am necessarily disagreeing with you, but if you have arctic tents and the world's supply of naptha, you can be comfortable in pretty much any winter conditions. I have taken it as low as -40C in an arctic tent. Inside, with the stove and lantern going, it was tee-shirt weather. If the wind chill value gets out of hand, you just confine everyone to their tents unless they are peeing or re-fueling the stove or lantern. Problem solved.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That’s a platoon rendered in effective.

And the 'rule of the frostbitten thumb' says that if 20 troops go down with cold injuries, there were about another 20 who were getting close....

 

[Blackadder1916]

That’s a platoon rendered in effective.

And the 'rule of the frostbitten thumb' says that if 20 troops go down with cold injuries, there were about another 20 who were getting close....

And 20 who are needed to take care of those suffering.  Not a platoon rendered ineffective but the majority of a company.  Having some experience with cold (and heat) injuries, leadership is the prime factor that determines good or bad outcomes.

Oh, and low, low sub-zero temps are not that much of a contributing factor.  The worst cold injuries I've seen happened in temps just a little below freezing.

 

[PuckChaser]

No article on the number of career ending injuries caused by the CAF sticking with a Korean War era parachute? I watched 33% of a Coy become casualties on exercise once, including broken femurs, necks and backs due to the decent rate of the CT1.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I’ve been on winter warfare exes with the regiment (not THAT long ago) that were colder.  That one year in Ramore when it was like -52 with the windchill comes to mind, and we didn’t have any cold related casualties that I can recall in any winter ex ever.

What I can see being the issue here, is if bug out kit lists are on the same principle they were when I was still in the regiment, we were to have no more or no less kit than what was on the list come inspection time.  As such, I followed the kit list to a T regardless of whether or not I agreed with what was on it from a practical standpoint.

We were never bugged out and sent to the field with that kit list, so it never really became an issue, but if that’s the case here then to me it’s a failure at all supervisory levels to 1) not ensure the kit list was practical and effective and 2) not allow individuals to pack additional kit if they so choose.

Not saying that is what happened here, but my time in the regiment most higher ups weren’t exactly open to change and suggestions, and I can’t see that culture changing dramatically in the last 7 years.

Whether it be the MCpls, Snr NCO’s, the officers, or all of them, the troops were failed at some level of leadership.........I’m curious as to who it was.

One wonders if they just did the bug out and hoped for the best, or they did individual, troop and Company training, perhaps an overnight on the lawn to work out the bugs in the training?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

About 20 Canadian Armed Forces members suffered frostbite, and some required hospitalization, following a military training session near Petawawa, Ont., held earlier this month in extremely cold weather.

On Jan. 17-18, nearly 120 soldiers with the Royal Canadian Dragoons participated in basic winter survival training while the temperature dropped to –31 C.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canadian-soldiers-suffer-frostbite-during-winter-training-1.4994767


1/6th of the company squadron getting frostbite, that's gotta sting.
8)

;D