Canadian Reserve Forces Vs US Reserve Forces

[Gunner]

My quotes are dated as they come from DCDS 2/98 (its on the DCDS intranet site).  The current version was released on 1 Apr 05 but I did not have a copy at the time of my posting.  I've quickly scanned it but I don't see any different themes from the previous version.

I was focused on your "prohibited" comments which are not the case at all.  If the situation required, I would feel quite comfortable taking a company from just about any reserve infantry unit, training it accordingly, and using it in any one of these roles.

GO!!! has a different view on Reserves based on his perception in an infantry battalion.  From a larger perspective, the Reserves can and do provide flexibility for the army in domestic and international operations. If the situation requires it, we could send a company, a battalion, etc overseas.  All it takes is resources and some time to build it, sort it out and make it cohesive.

 

[pbi]

In defence of Haggis, while our current written policy certainly appears to give latitude to employ Res on Dom Ops as we see fit, and Res today have a much greater role in Dom Ops than ever before, anybody on this site with more than a few years in uniform knows very well that the "common wisdom" or "unwritten rule" or whatever we may wish to call it was that we would not use Res in a CCO or "hard" ACP/ALEA (ie: ALEA IV) role. I see very little insult to the Res in this: anybody who has done any serious CCO training knows how demanding it is, and anybody who has watched public order units struggle with dangerous and angry crowds knows how risky it can be. Just as we would not send Res on a cbt op with less than 90 days of trg, we would not send them on an ACP/hard ALEA task without the proper levels of fitness, weapons handling, discipline and MST needed. Problem is, public order situations tend to flare up so quickly that the option of training Res to the required standard does not normally exist.

I asked our friends in 34 ID how they handled the issue with their ARNG units, who typically have fewer days of annual training than our Res. The answer I was given was that not all units had the task at once: the equipment was rotated around a state, along with a training package. Pehaps some of our US friends can comment.

Cheers

 

[Gunner]

In defence of Haggis, while our current written policy certainly appears to give latitude to employ Res on Dom Ops as we see fit, and Res today have a much greater role in Dom Ops than ever before, anybody on this site with more than a few years in uniform knows very well that the "common wisdom" or "unwritten rule" or whatever we may wish to call it was that we would not use Res in a CCO or "hard" ACP/ALEA (ie: ALEA IV) role. I see very little insult to the Res in this: anybody who has done any serious CCO training knows how demanding it is, and anybody who has watched public order units struggle with dangerous and angry crowds knows how risky it can be. Just as we would not send Res on a cbt op with less than 90 days of trg, we would not send them on an ACP/hard ALEA task without the proper levels of fitness, weapons handling, discipline and MST needed. Problem is, public order situations tend to flare up so quickly that the option of training Res to the required standard does not normally exist.

I think you mean ALEA Class 1 (not 4) (CF assistance in support of law enforcement operations, where a disturbance of the peace is occurring or may occur, and where the support is in the form of CF personnel and/or operational equipment) ;D

pbi, ack, no argument with your comments but they reflect a different approach than "prohibited".   As I mentioned, the reserve coy on roto 11 was involved in ALEA for Op GRIZZLY and I believe it was a Class 1 ALEA.   I'm not talkiing about calling up the CO of the R Wpg R and telling him to gather what troops he can, and report to the Headingly Penitentiary to conduct prisoner riot control.   We wouldn't do that to the Reserves and we wouldn't do it to a regular unit either....common sense prevails.

 

[Haggis]

My quotes are dated as they come from DCDS 2/98 (its on the DCDS intranet site).   The current version was released on 1 Apr 05 but I did not have a copy at the time of my posting.   I've quickly scanned it but I don't see any different themes from the previous version.

Essentailly true.  I quoted the '05 version.

I was focused on your "prohibited" comments which are not the case at all.   If the situation required, I would feel quite comfortable taking a company from just about any reserve infantry unit, training it accordingly, and using it in any one of these roles.

I was witness to the training of a total force Infantry CCO unit in 1990.  It never deployed but was fully capable of doing so.

If the situation requires it, we could send a company, a battalion, etc overseas.   All it takes is resources and some time to build it, sort it out and make it cohesive.

Having taken a Res coy overseas, I agree.  However to do anything larger or do it repeatedly requires a major shift in funding, resources, legislation and, more importantly, Reserrve political and public mindset.

OK... "Prohibited" was a bad word.  Can we move on?

 

[Gunner]

OK... "Prohibited" was a bad word.  Can we move on?

No problem.  As I mentioned, I didn't want to get sucked into this thread as I can't stand reading some of the fiction that gets quoted as gospel on this site.  I'll be back at it after 13 Dec during xmas leave. 

Dom Ops is close to my heart and is one of my pet peeves, you were just the unlucky poster that caught my eye.

Cheers

 

[pbi]

I think you mean ALEA Class 1 (not 4) (CF assistance in support of law enforcement operations, where a disturbance of the peace is occurring or may occur, and where the support is in the form of CF personnel and/or operational equipment) ;D

pbi, ack, no argument with your comments but they reflect a different approach than "prohibited".   As I mentioned, the reserve coy on roto 11 was involved in ALEA for Op GRIZZLY and I believe it was a Class 1 ALEA.   I'm not talkiing about calling up the CO of the R Wpr R and telling him to gather what troops he can, and report to the Headingly Penitenture to conduct prisoner riot control.   We wouldn't do that to the Reserves and we wouldn't do it to a regular unit either....common sense prevails.

You are right: Class I not Class IV. I have a good memory: it's just short.

I was on GRIZZLY too (I was CO of  the TFC's Res) so I am aware of the Res Coy. My point was really not to differ with the facts you presented, but rather to reflect what the common practice and wisdom were until quite recently. As an aside, as a young Res Cpl in 1976 I was trained in CCO and some ACP skills as part of Task Force Two of OPGAMESCAN, the CF support to Olympic security in Montreal. I can tell you that the CF quite definitely had "law enforcement equipment" and trained very actively for crowd control, at least for that op.

Cheers

 

[DOOG]

Greetings..
As I recall, there was a fair amount of shields, batons, face shields and gas guns in Kanasatake in 1990 and they were being used
( practised with) by 2RCR including the Reservists that were augmenting them. As for Reserves being used on Aid to Whomever.. I think it will very much depend on where and how bad and how busy the nearest Reg F guys are. I seem to recall travelling around the Montreal area with a bombed up Cougar and nobody said "you can't be here with real bullets cuz yer not trained enough". They said "go there, do that".

We were carrying 40 rounds amin armament, a couple of boxes of coax and 150 rds 5.56 each. No ROEs, very little prep for the job. Thank &**##!! nothing bad happened. What I am getting at is if the "Powers That Be" need soldats, and the nearest professionals are away in some desert, or are stretched thin or held up by lack of aircraft etc, you can be pretty sure that all your careful planning will go bye bye and the local Reservists will have to do whatever. That is what wearing a uniform is all about. Not what we do, or what we know, or even what we are trained for..it is about what we are prepared to do.

Later..

 

[Spr.Earl]

Geo re; My company pension is the same as the DND " Superannuation" and if and when the Reserve pension comes in and I retire from the Forces I can transfer x years to my company pension which will give me 35yrs or a full pension and the remainder stays with the DND pension.At the time I would have had to pay a full year up front,i.e $X,000 's to keep current or buy back which I can still do.
Yes I'm bit a dummy and did not salt away in RRSP's but we do have a spousal RRSP which we can't transfer only the memshib can but only in her name,there again when I was single I enjoyed my self by travel,wine,women and song. ;D :
Oh I was a late bloomer,I got married when I was 38. ;D


PBI re your comment " The worst employers were identified as being small police depts "
I know of a gent who was a Maj. in the Reserves ( F.E.) who was a constable with the Vancouver P.D. and asked for a leave of absence to go over to Bosnia,he was denied the leave so he promptly quit,did his tour came back and got a job with another local P.D. with in a month and still there but has since retired from the C.F.

On the same note about 3yrs ago I was down in Dallas,Tx. for two week's when one night watching the local news was an item were the Dallas P.D. had cut off all the benefits for the families of P.D. members who were serving in the Reserves and ANG overseas,Iraq,Afg. and had been for a year or more.The members of tthe P.D. and citezen's set up a fund to cover these families.
My self I had to pay the full medical and dental for my wife while I was on class C with the Regiment,the Co. paid nothing once my vacation time and over time was all gone.

 

[pbi]

PBI re your comment " The worst employers were identified as being small police depts "
I know of a gent who was a Maj. in the Reserves ( F.E.) who was a constable with the Vancouver P.D. and asked for a leave of absence to go over to Bosnia,he was denied the leave so he promptly quit,did his tour came back and got a job with another local P.D. with in a month and still there but has since retired from the C.F.

On the same note about 3yrs ago I was down in Dallas,Tx. for two week's when one night watching the local news was an item were the Dallas P.D. had cut off all the benefits for the families of P.D. members who were serving in the Reserves and ANG overseas,Iraq,Afg. and had been for a year or more.The members of tthe P.D. and citezen's set up a fund to cover these families.
My self I had to pay the full medical and dental for my wife while I was on class C with the Regiment,the Co. paid nothing once my vacation time and over time was all gone.

By the same token some police services have very good policies on Res service. The Winnipeg Police Service, for example, had a policy granting so many weeks for Res duty to each WPS member. We had a number of people in our Bde who were members of the WPS: I know of at least two who were given LOA beyond the stated Res leave in order to deploy with SFOR.

Cheers

 

[Spr.Earl]

PBI,I'm a 3rd Eng. on B.C. Ferries and have not gotten anything from them in regards to a so called gratuity because I'm in the Militia but it still erk's me they still question me why and denie me time off.
I can't count how much of my earned time I have given.
But still a loyal Sapper.

UBIQUE

 

[Baloo]

Well, my impression (sorry, if this was discussed before in the thread) is that one difference between the two, is training time.

From what I have gathered, US NG soldiers will receive one weekend a month, two weeks a year in training. Where as, Canadian Reservists will acquire more or less the same in terms of that, but with an extra day a week, and perhaps more weekends in between due to courses. I admit, I am not familiar with NG course loading. I will also admit, that that extra time may not seem like much, but it does definitely improve unit cohesion, co-operation and morale. So, it can't be that we aren't sending guys overseas for lack of training.

In addition, we had a USMC colonel come to Ft. York a few weeks back, to talk to some of us about their experiences in Iraq, and about OBUA. In an offhand question, one individual asked how much work-up training a USMC Reservist gets prior to deployment. The answer came back, VERY shocking, at roughly two weeks. Two weeks to prepare someone for war. Granted, I will assume they are already fully trained, but here in Canada, after being qualified, Reservists spend three months or more on solid exercises.

My question is now, what are we doing so differently? Why can we not seem to send troops over? It can't be a simple "lack of training" issue. Is it only a political one, like is being talked about here?

 

[geo]

Baloo,
you have to understand that NDHQ has intentionaly inserted a "delta" between the Res & the Reg. The general consensus is that the reservist is given a +/- 25% handicap that will be filled, as and when the individual is required... as part of a managed readiness (oxymoron) plan.

The reservist, stark naked (as is) is competent enough in his basic soldier skills, without talking about some of his "external" capabilities (from Civy street) that he brings into the equation... to a degree, this is why the reservist is paid @ 85% or the Regular soldier's pay scale.

Have worked with US NG/Res & Reg military over the years... (without talking about reservists & Regs from the UK, France & Germany)
All in all, taking everything into consideration, our reservists measure up quite well. Much can be improved but a good starting point nevertheless.

 

[Roger]

Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not trues that during WWI, WWII and Korea. That a soldier came from the street and was sent to war after 6 weeks?

And now in Canada, a reservist might have to go on a 6 months pre-training?

 

[George Wallace]

Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not trues that during WWI, WWII and Korea. That a soldier came from the street and was sent to war after 6 weeks?

And now in Canada, a reservist might have to go on a 6 months pre-training?

The answer to that is Yes, and No.   In WW I and WW II we saw troops training in Canada prior to going off to war, buy then moving into Camps in England where they sometimes spent years before crossing over to mainland Europe.   Korea, is another story altogether.   Most of those first to go were WW II veterans who reinlisted and trained at their units, then moved to Ft Lewis, Washington, to train more prior to embarkation to Camps in Korea.

I imagine if you took into account all the time training in Canada, all the time training in the UK or US and then the length of time between enlistment and actually encountering the Enemy, you will have quite a bit more than six months in the majority of cases.

 

[geo]

WW2, troops started to ship out to England in 1939. Ist Cdn troops to be engaged were in Dieppe in 1942 so: saaaay 3 years (36 mths of training)

WW1 troops started to ship out to France & UK in Oct 14 but these troops were, for the most part, Cdn militia + Brit troops who had retired & moved to Canada.

Korea.... as George said....

So; yeah, lots of citzen soldiers fought in the great war(s) but, they too had a chance to train, organize and get their act together.

 

[pbi]

Well, my impression (sorry, if this was discussed before in the thread) is that one difference between the two, is training time.

From what I have gathered, US NG soldiers will receive one weekend a month, two weeks a year in training. Where as, Canadian Reservists will acquire more or less the same in terms of that, but with an extra day a week, and perhaps more weekends in between due to courses. I admit, I am not familiar with NG course loading. I will also admit, that that extra time may not seem like much, but it does definitely improve unit cohesion, co-operation and morale. So, it can't be that we aren't sending guys overseas for lack of training.

In addition, we had a USMC colonel come to Ft. York a few weeks back, to talk to some of us about their experiences in Iraq, and about OBUA. In an offhand question, one individual asked how much work-up training a USMC Reservist gets prior to deployment. The answer came back, VERY shocking, at roughly two weeks. Two weeks to prepare someone for war. Granted, I will assume they are already fully trained, but here in Canada, after being qualified, Reservists spend three months or more on solid exercises.

My question is now, what are we doing so differently? Why can we not seem to send troops over? It can't be a simple "lack of training" issue. Is it only a political one, like is being talked about here?

A few comments:

While USARNG (and, I think USAR) do spend fewer annual training days than the typical Cdn Res soldier, they do have an added benefit that their early MOC training is usually done to the same standard as the Active Army, full time at an Army school, so this gives them a head start over our Res. As well, the USARNG has (IIRC) been   well in advance of us in getting training to the Reservists by means of correspondence, mobile training teams (ie: Bradley UCOFT trainer mounted in semi-trailer) and now Distributed Learning (although we are making good progress on DL now).

I would be cautious comparing the USMCR with the USARNG. The USARNG officers and NCOS I met and interviewed in Afgh (from a Lt Inf bn from Virginia ARNG), did far, far more than two weeks of training before going overseas, including a cycle through Ft Polk "Light Fighter" centre. The USARNG Mech Inf bn that I was familiar with when I was in 38 CBG, the "Bearcats" of north Minnesota, began its training for Bosnia nearly a year before it deployed.

The USMCR is quite different from the USARNG/USAR. IIRC, all of its members are former Active Duty Marines: there are no "off the street" USMCR (unless things have changed since I attended Quantico 97/98). In particular, physical fitness standards are the same for Res Marines as for Active Duty: a huge difference for us as we are still fiddling about with this issue for our Res. It seems to me that, depending on how long ago the person left active duty, and how many tours he has been on recently, two weeks for a USMCR might be quite possible. You can ask the same questions about our Army Res today, as we have a number of ex-Regs and a very good number of Res with more than one tour recently. These Res soldiers, I suggest, might require less pre-deployment training than the "traditional" Class A Res soldier. Having been a Res Inf soldier myself, having commanded Res soldiers on ops, and having been responsible for coord of Res force generation at Area and Bde levels, I would not want to see our average Res soldier deploy on ops with less than 90 days of solid trg. Nor, for that matter, a goodly number of our RegF people, especially those not from the Army field side.

Cheers

 

[BruceinAlberta]

I just retired from 20 years in the US Army (1985-1994 Active; 1994-2005 National Guard)   I just got back from Iraq earlier in '05 where I commanded an NG mech inf BN from the 256th INfantry BDE (M)(E).   Believe me when I say we have struggled for years on how to use reserve forces in the USA.   Years ago the reserve component (RC) was for many a social club, and the active duty force had little respect for it.   However, in the 1980s that began to change with the concept of the round-out BDEs where NG BDEs were made part of active divisions.   For example, my last BDE was the roundout for the 5th ID(M) in the 80s.   Desert Storm showed the RC could do it's job but it would take time to fully bring the combat arms RC units into the same respect as the RC CS and CSS units.   It was the drawdown in the 90s that heightened the importance of those units.   Also RC combat arms units began to get experienced active duty (AD) officers and NCOs in their ranks (I am an example of that.   I took an early out bonus to get my MBA but I stayed in the NG simply to supplement my income at the time.   In 1994 when I got off AD I had fought in Desert Storm and Somalia)  

I also believe the US learned many lessons from earlier wars where replacements were thrown into units where they were treated as though they" did not belong."    Keeping unit integrity prevents this.   Also, my last BDE is an enhanced BDE, meaning we had identical equipment, MTOE and requirements as our AD cousins.   My BN deployed as a BDE and except for a bit of a longer train-up for us, we did everything in combat in Iraq that our AD cousins did.   After about a month in country our standards were no different than AD units.  

One problem we have now is overuse of the RC.   Many soldiers (like me) have done multiple tours since 9/11, and this takes a toll on our civilian lives.   Also, many CS and CSS RC units have been pulled apart to bring units up to strength and this has caused the problem of replacements not being "part of the family" attitude again.  

Once Iraq is done, the US has plans to prevent overuse of the RC and I hope they implement them.   Also, the wars need to show US planners that our AD strenth should be higher.   This is being addressed by a major restructuring of MTOEs now

 

[pbi]

Greetings Bruce. I am not sure if this is your first post here, but anyway welcome to Army.ca. Folks with US experience are always much needed to add a note of actual knowledge to some of our discussions here.(Hope you have thick skin...) In the interests of offering some of that enlightenment here, can you outline the career progression and training background of, let's say, a typical rifle squad leader in your NG Bn, from civvy street to Staff Sgt? How is initial MOC (US=MOS) training completed today? Out of a typical NG year, how many day's training does a "traditional" NG soldier do? (I'm not referred to Activated NG or full time unit staff). I offered some opinion below,but I am conscious of the fact that I may well be out of date.

Cheers

 

[BruceinAlberta]

Today there is one basic route to becoming an infantry squad leader, and it is about the same as active duty (AD) with a few differences.  Every enlisted inf.man must attend Basic Combat Training (BCT) at FT Benning, GA (other MOSs attend BCT at other posts..i.e. artillery at FT Sill OK, Engineers, Chemical and MPs, FT Leonard Wood, MO,  Armor, FT Knox, KY, Combat Service Support MOSs, FT Jackson SC but then they go on to other posts for further training).  All BCT is 9 weeks.  Next comes Advanced  Individual Training(AIT) www.armybasic.homestead.com/ait.html  (This link lists the posts for AIT)  In infantry it is called One Station Unit Training (OSUT) and it lasts 14-16 weeks which combines BCT and AIT.  (for college students they allow them to split summers between basic and AIT)  After that he can attend other schools such as anti-tank weapons,  airborne, ranger, javelin, master gunner etc.  The progression of ranks is as follows Private E1, Private E2, Private First Class E3. Corporal or SPecialist E4, Sergeant E5, Staff Sergeeant E6, Sergeant First Class E7, Master Sergeant or First Sergeant E8 and Sergeant Major or Command Sergeant Major E9.  More school are required for promotion.  From E4 to E5 a soldier must attend Platoon Leaders Development Course, from E5 to E6 they must attend Basic NCO Course, from E6 to E7 Advanced NCO Course, E7 to E8 First Sergeants Course, from E8 to E9 Sergeant Majors Academy.  ON AD a soldier attends the course but NG allows a combination of correspondence courses and school attendence.  Nowadays alot of NG soldiers are taking the courses just like AD soldiers.  In my BN most of my squad leaders were either E5s or E6s.  However the majority were E6s.  These young men are the backbone of an infantry company, and they did a tremendous job in Iraq.  I cannot tell you how many times these young men made critical decisions on patrols that meant life or death.  An ambush could spring up instantly and there was no time to have commo with their platoons or company.  I cannot describe how proud they all made me.  I also lost quite a few great men over there, and each one of them are true heroes who I can never forget. 

 

[pbi]

Thanks Bruce. I had the same impression of US Inf squad leaders (both Army and Marines) when I was in Afgh last year.

Cheers