Canadian Public Opinion Polls on Afghanistan

[Teddy Ruxpin]

OK, just to throw some oil on the water...

ATHENA 2 was not, strictly speaking, a combat mission.  The training was very specifically tailored to activities in Kabul and to a "secure environment"-type operation.  I know, as I was an observer controller on the final ex and eventually deployed on the Roto myself.  "Combat" training was not required for this mission and personally I thought the final ex was a fairly decent simulation of what we actually encountered in theatre.

You cannot compare the training conducted in this context with the preparation for ARCHER.  1 PPCLI and the Bde HQ completed a full BTE prior to validation, something ATHENA 2 certainly did not do.  I did not participate in this training, so cannot comment on its effectiveness, although others certainly can.  I also know that if you deployed on ATHENA 2 with Recce Sqn, you had very little to do with 1 PP's workup as well, so blanket comments on "trainnig for Afghanistan" are uncalled for.

 

[2 Cdo]

Please, explain training for combat........I would like to hear what you know on the subject.
I admit I don't know very much about killing.........you must have went to some special
Canadian Forces school that taught you all about it !

:crybaby:

If the Strats aren't training for war then it's time to get rid of them! You sound like a young disgruntled troopie who probably gets jacked up every thirty seconds for whining about something or another. You are in the Canadian Forces, who funny enough are a military, a military that trains for war/combat.
As for that special school that taught about combat and killing, the PPCLI Battleschool 1982!

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Sabre-

Remember going to "Battle School" after basic training?  I'll give you three guesses as to why it's called "Battle" and not, oh, say, "peacekeeping school"...

Killing might have been brought up once or twice during your crewman course...

 

[2 Cdo]

Killing might have been brought up once or twice during your crewman course...

He missed those lectures as he was at the MIR!

 

[Sabre1918]

:crybaby:

If the Strats aren't training for war then it's time to get rid of them! You sound like a young disgruntled troopie who probably gets jacked up every thirty seconds for whining about something or another. You are in the Canadian Forces, who funny enough are a military, a military that trains for war/combat.
As for that special school that taught about combat and killing, the PPCLI Battleschool 1982!

WOW..........how many people have you killed 2 Cdo ?

I remember "Battle School". However, I don't recall ever being taught how to kill someone. I remember shooting at targets and pretending they were fantasia fucking forces.........but no I don't recall having someone teach me how to kill someone. I can't believe how naive you all are.........were talking about Afghanistan gentleman ! A country that has been killing for generations, and trained to do so........with live bodies of their enemies.

I will leave you with this last thought......Do you think their soldiers suffer from PTSD ?
I say NOT! They probably laugh every time someone tells them about it !

 

[a_majoor]

I fail to understand your point about killing. I have never fired a shot in anger, even through three armed operational deployments, but I was never under any misapprehensions about what my role was, nor the (literally) god like power of life and death I commanded through the use of my personal firearms, commanding my section or acting as part of a larger formation.

Training throughout my career instilled this recognition into me and prepared me mentally and physically to use armed force as required to accomplish my mission. Training is a form of education. I can recall learning physics and math using questions involving calculating the trajectory of an object orbiting the earth or a shell fired from a cannon, I was being taught general principles and how they could be applied, not how to become a satellite tracker or artilleryman! Similarly, your time on the range and on EX teaches you general principles which can be ultimately applied to taking another person's life.

If you believe you will be unable to use your training to protect yourself, the soldiers around you or on order to accomplish your mission, then I suggest a taking a long time to sit down and reflect what you are doing in the Armed Forces, and if you are able to contribute to the forces in your current capacity. This is not a slam, but a serious suggestion. Take it as such.

 

[the 48th regulator]

will leave you with this last thought......Do you think their soldiers suffer from PTSD ?
I say NOT! They probably laugh every time someone tells them about it !

Do you know what casues PTSD? Obviously you don't sound like you do,  I suggest you stay in your lane regarding that.

As for the targets, what figure was on it?  Are you saying we use live bodies for training so we can get blodded before going to battle?

I don't know why I even bothered to wade in here, I promised I wouldn't.

Saber, Talk some sense please

dileas

tess

 

[RangerRay]

When I did my reserve QL2/3 in Wainwright 12 years ago, the DS left no doubt in my mind that they were training myself, and the rest of the platoon, how to kill the enemy...

 

[Sabre1918]

Do you know what casues PTSD? Obviously you don't sound like you do,  I suggest you stay in your lane regarding that.

As for the targets, what figure was on it?  Are you saying we use live bodies for training so we can get blodded before going to battle?

I don't know why I even bothered to wade in here, I promised I wouldn't.

Saber, Talk some sense please

dileas

tess

You know what I don't understand......why whenever PTSD is mentioned everyone automaticaly takes the defensive.
Or they are told not to touch on the subject etc. What the fuck are you all scared of ?

As far as my previous posts above. My service is not in question here !
I'm proud of my country and all the soldiers I have served with and the soldiers that are serving today.....

Thought provokoing as it is I'm not in agreement with our comittment in Afghanistan........time will tell.

Thanks.

 

[2 Cdo]

My service is not in question here !
I'm proud of my country and all the soldiers I have served with and the soldiers that are serving today.....

With your attitude i doubt if the feeling is reciprocal!

Thought provokoing as it is I'm not in agreement with our comittment in Afghanistan........time will tell.

Good thing nobody asked for your personal input! :

As for killing someone, that is between me and my maker! I would suggest that if you weren't instilled with a warriors ethos during your basic and still maintain that we are not training for war maybe it's time for you to clear out and open a position for someone not so jaded!
I still stand by my bitter troop comment, clear out, you sound as if you would be a morale drain for any unit you belonged too! :threat:

 

[the 48th regulator]

You know what I don't understand......why whenever PTSD is mentioned everyone automaticaly takes the defensive.
Or they are told not to touch on the subject etc. What the frig are you all scared of ?

No, it is not the fact that you mention it, it is the fact you do not understand the disorder, and use it as some flippant comment to emphasize your argument about "War hardened"Soldiers.

What I am scared of, is people like you, who think they know what they are talking about posting comments regarding the training level of us soldiers, how we can not handle war, that PTSD is something battle hardened troops would laugh off, and to top it all from someone who claims to have served.

That is what I do not understand, and scares me Sabre.


dileas

tess

 

[scoutfinch]

WOW..........how many people have you killed 2 Cdo ?

I remember "Battle School". However, I don't recall ever being taught how to kill someone. I remember shooting at targets and pretending they were fantasia ******* forces.........but no I don't recall having someone teach me how to kill someone. I can't believe how naive you all are.........were talking about Afghanistan gentleman ! A country that has been killing for generations, and trained to do so........with live bodies of their enemies.

I will leave you with this last thought......Do you think their soldiers suffer from PTSD ?
I say NOT! They probably laugh every time someone tells them about it !

Hmmm.  I am on my BMQ and when I am instructed to "double tap" with the first to the centre of visible mass, I am assuming that they are talking about killing the enemy.  :

I didn't perceive *double tap* as a new tap dance step nor was *centre of visible mass* a physics terms.  :  Moreover, when the freakin' target has a human face and body, I assume it is intended to condition me to not hesitate to put a few rounds in somebpdy should the conditions present.  (shouldn't there be a *DUH!!* gemlin for things like this?).  I am assuming there may be a prohibition of getting real live people to run across the range for training purposes.  (Damn I need the DUH gremlin again!)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thought provokoing as it is I'm not in agreement with our comittment in Afghanistan........time will tell.

Thanks.

Do tell. I thought I might have missed that in your posts : However, I'm sure you'll participate when told, as a twenty year Corporal would know. Now, if your doubting yourself, I suggest you take A Majoors advice and sum yourself up.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Sabre1918,
I remember "Battle School". However, I don't recall ever being taught how to kill someone. I remember shooting at targets and pretending they were fantasia ******* forces.........but no I don't recall having someone teach me how to kill someone.

Well the Battle School sends its apologies,.....it seems we must have ran out of the "live volunteer targets" just before you got there...... :clown:

 

[Sabre1918]

Quote from Sabre1918,
I remember "Battle School". However, I don't recall ever being taught how to kill someone. I remember shooting at targets and pretending they were fantasia ******* forces.........but no I don't recall having someone teach me how to kill someone.

Well the Battle School sends its apologies,.....it seems we must have ran out of the "live volunteer targets" just before you got there...... :clown:

LOL.......I think you are all somewhat confused. I wasn't suggesting we use "LIVE" targets for training. Allthough I see were you might have got that impression from my statement above. What I'm trying to get across is Canadian soldiers don't have the apparent instinct to kill.

I'm not a hunter and because of the society that I live in it's not required of me to do so. If I want a steak, I can pick one up at the grocery store. I wouldn't go into the woods and shoot a deer for one. In Afghanistan families wouldn't survive if they didn't hunt for food. I shot my first deer when I was 12 years old. I will never forget that day..........I haven't hunted since. I guess you could say I just didn't have the stomach for it.

Could I kill someone if I had too.....a life or death situation, perhaps if it was justified.

Take a look at the average Afghanistan soldier.....He has experienced death in more ways than you and I can imagine. He has likely lost parents, children, seen/participated in genocide, lost his home, has nothing but his rifle and someone sreaming kill the fucking infidels in his ear.

Take a look at our average Canadian soldier......What does he hold dear to him at home.
Now take all those things away...... What type of person would he be then..........Do you suppose he would become a killer ?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"What I'm trying to get across is Canadian soldiers don't have the apparent instinct to kill."

I disagree 100%.  In Bosnia my Pl Cmdr and I were walking down a one vehicle wide path.  We passed a car that was seen in a lot of the recent trouble spots.  We eventually turned around and passed the car again on our way to our Iltis.  (forgot to mention this car tried to get past us earlier but with the Iltis there it backed off).  Anyways the driver gets in, young guy, starts the car (we are about 30 feet away now) and revs is engine and lurches forward like he is gonna run us down.  The Pl commander and I BOTH instinctively turned in wards drawing our prospective wpns on the vehicle with no hesitation or thought.  The driver backed off immediately and lucky for him because 1-2 seconds more and he probably would have had a few 5.56 in the head.
The point of this babble is I am no hunter but the training as it is provided to me was enough for me to instinctively draw upon a perceived threat with no hesitation.

 

[Franko]

Normally I don't get drawn in by a troll but this time I'll take exception    :

My opinion is from my own personal experience....Roto 2 Kabul.

Exactly....it's 2 years outdated. As it was explained before, different tasks. Kabul was secured by the time you hit the ground and you were trained to deal with a semi-secure environment. Kandahar is not even close to being what Kabul is nor will it be for the near future. When we changed from Athena to Archer it was like someone switched on a light in a darkened room in regards to the ROEs we were given and brought up to speed on in theater. Our SOPs immensely changed as well. We have fired in self defence....and notably a young soldier killed a civilian in self defence.

I don't know what fantasy world you are living in....Or what you have been told, lead to believe !

The same black hatted one as you.

Please, explain training for combat........I would like to hear what you know on the subject.

Incase you haven't already figured it out....those man shaped target you go on the range and shoot at is a simulation of a person. What about the AFV shaped targets on the ranges in Wainwright that you shoot at with the tanks or Coyotes?

Incase you haven't figured out what your training has been teaching you over your 20 years in the Armour Corps is to take someones life, swiftly and effectively.

I admit I don't know very much about killing.........you must have went to some special
Canadian Forces school that taught you all about it !

Man you must have been out of it for over 20 years....in Battle School (Remember going through Gagetown?) on your TQ3 on a gunnery course or basic crewman course you were taught basic skills to cover your arse on the battlefield.

It was also alluded to in an Earlier post by scoutfinch:

Hmmm.  I am on my BMQ and when I am instructed to "double tap" with the first to the centre of visible mass, I am assuming that they are talking about killing the enemy.

He's on his friggin basic and he's already figured it out!!!

Also the guys that were involved in the firefight one day ago figured it out

You must have the worse case of APS I've ever seen.    :

Take a look at our average Canadian soldier......What does he hold dear to him at home.
Now take all those things away...... What type of person would he be then..........Do you suppose he would become a killer ?

You don't have much of a choice if your on patrol and some guy comes screaming up on you on a motorcycle that was described exactly in the latest INTREP. Your confusing what is normal at home with what is normal in the sandbox.

Thankfully you aren't on tour nor going in the next few....thinking like that can get someone killed, namely everyone in your crew.

CFL said, excellent point BTW     

The point of this babble is I am no hunter but the training as it is provided to me was enough for me to instinctively draw upon a perceived threat with no hesitation.

Do us all a favour....retire from the CF. You obviously have no idea of what you were getting into when you joined.

/rant




Now onto something else....

<Mod mode on>

You have consistently come on to this site since you joined and have spouted off without little information and challenging persons on their experiences IE: 2Cdo

As A Majoor said "Sum yourself up"....before it's too late.

Keep this up and your on the ramp without a chute....and I won't be doing the dirty deed either.

<Mod mode off>

 

[Michael OLeary]

Take a look at the average Afghanistan soldier.....He has experienced death in more ways than you and I can imagine. He has likely lost parents, children, seen/participated in genocide, lost his home, has nothing but his rifle and someone sreaming kill the ******* infidels in his ear.

Take a look at our average Canadian soldier......What does he hold dear to him at home.
Now take all those things away...... What type of person would he be then..........Do you suppose he would become a killer ?

OK, you've "defined" the problem, from your personal point of view. What is your solution?

Otherwise it's just venting.  As others have ably described, it may also be out of date.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

The Canadian soldier doesn't (snicker) have the instincts (snicker) to kill (ROTFLMAO) ;D.  Who did you serve with?  I have to admit, I never had that problem.  Whenever the issue has come up (professionally or informally with the criminal element), reflexes and adrenaline did the driving, and let the chips (and opponents) fall where they may.  Do you think my having a wife and three beautiful daughters will keep me from my "double tap, drop, roll, engage"?  Having a family means that you are more willing to do what you have to to get home alive.  Having something to live for makes you less inclined to worry about why the other person is fighting, and more concerned with making him safely dead before he can threaten you or your comrades further.  The enemies willingness to die does not trump our desire to live, it just makes it simpler for us to swiftly grant both wishes.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Could I kill someone if I had too.....a life or death situation, perhaps if it was justified.

Those that can...do. Those that can't.....go to work in museums.