Canadian police need more armour & firepower. The CF should not be needed to support.

[Wizard of OZ]

...
Although I must say that the involvement of the military (or in this case the potential involvement) bothers me, a lot. I am of the firm belief that the military should NOT be used for civil police actions, it's not their job. The way I see it the military is there to protect society from foreign dangers (and an argument can be made in the case for insurrection) as opposed civil policing matters (such as executing warrants, et cetera).
I also don't like the idea of regular beat officers being given high powered weapons that should be left to the ETF/ERT teams. Perhaps there should be more of them.
I also don't believe the presence of a C8 or C9 in this case would have made a difference, the media reports make it sound like they were ambushed

Sheerin

I think you tread water in dangerous grounds, with that post.   Calling on the military to potential save the lives of the downed officers? how is that bad.   they wanted the AFV to act as cover so they could get their men.   In my personal opinion, the army(military) is there to protect and assist all Canadians from threats foreign and domestic.   I will rant no more on this as this is not the post for it.

God be with those who server and make the ultimate sacrifice.   BOTB

 

[Sheerin]

I'm not suggesting that we just leave those officers, rather I'm suggesting that the military is not the right tool for the job.  I suggest that if we want to disucss this we do it in another thread to avoid this one from being closed.

 

[MikeM]

Why should "regular beat Officers" as you call them be restricted to non-high powered weaponry? (ex. Service pistol & shotgun). All officers should be trained in the use of these weapons, and become proficient. They need any weapon necessary to get the job done in the absence of an ERT, if they have these weapons at their disposal before the ERT is there, then I see no reason why they should not be able to use these weapons.

Regular beat officers are not any less of an officer simply because of what they do. All police officers are HIGHLY trained as far as I'm concerned, some have just chosen to be specialized and enhance their skills further.

 

[big bad john]

I'm not suggesting that we just leave those officers, rather I'm suggesting that the military is not the right tool for the job.   I suggest that if we want to disucss this we do it in another thread to avoid this one from being closed.

What about "Aid to the civil power"?  Isn't that a military tasking in Canada?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

What about "Aid to the civil power"?   Isn't that a military tasking in Canada?

Yes, it is.

 

[McG]

What about "Aid to the civil power"? Isn't that a military tasking in Canada?

Exactly.  There is nothing wrong with the CF being called when a situation is beyond the means of civilian law enforcement.  It should not be a common occurrence, but I don't see evidence the frequency should be expected to change much any time soon.

If we start to believe that police will need this capability on a frequent basis, then we should look at giving them a more integral capability.  One option would be to give old grizzly's (turret removed) to police tactical teams.  If we start to draw on grizzlies still in service, those vehicles could be replaced in the Army by new LAV III.

Better body armour and weapons for the average police officer?  Sure.  If they are capable of being police, then they should be capable of being trained to use an assault carbine or SMG.

 

[big bad john]

This is much different than the UK.  There armed PCs are trained in all the weapons that they might use.  You see Police at Heathrow and other airports armed with MP5s doing CT security patrols.  I haven't seen this in Canada yet.  The operative word being "yet".

 

[CBH99]

You have to remember, in the UK their "regular beat police officers",  aka "bobbies" aren't armed at all.  It is only certain officers, in certain positions and taskings, that are armed - their regular officer is not.

 

[big bad john]

That is true.  The London Met has SO19 as their armed elite unit.

 

[1feral1]

Why should "regular beat Officers" as you call them be restricted to non-high powered weaponry? (ex. Service pistol & shotgun). All officers should be trained in the use of these weapons, and become proficient. They need any weapon necessary to get the job done in the absence of an ERT, if they have these weapons at their disposal before the ERT is there, then I see no reason why they should not be able to use these weapons.

Regular beat officers are not any less of an officer simply because of what they do. All police officers are HIGHLY trained as far as I'm concerned, some have just chosen to be specialized and enhance their skills further.

Sorry Sheerin,

I don't agree with anything you say PERIOD. In short we can agree to disagree. Complete foolishness. You were NOT there to evaluate the situation, so lets NOT speculate.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Sheerin]

I personally feel that the use of the military for civilian policing matters sets a dangerous precedent - the good old slippery slope argument.
As for police beat officers being given high powered weapons, they don't need them, and I seriously suspect that the training would be insufficient.  This is based on anecdotal evidence* from a friend who is a cop in Durham region, he said that they only get on the range once a year to practice, that seems woefully inadequate for a 9mm, and if they were using Military weapons then well that lack of regular training would be criminal. 
I have nothing against better body armour or the use of highly trained ETF officers; I just don't believe EVERY cop should be given high powered, automatic weapons. 

If they had a C8, do you honestly think that those officers would still be alive?  I don't know, but I have my doubts for the simple reason that there were only a handful of officers involved - was it even a raid?  My bet is if they suspect this individual being truly dangerous, the RCMP's ERT would be been involved from the get go.  If that is the case then chances are if they officers had C8s, they'd most likely be sitting in the trunks of their cars.  Unless of course you guys are suggesting that the officers carry the C8s with them all the time?  I don't think Canadians want to see their police walking around with C8 carbines all the time; this is Canada after all and not Israel or Saudi Arabia.

Oh one other thing, do we have anything similar to the US' Posse Comitatus Act? 

* Please feel free to take my anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt, I can assure you I'm not making that one up but I have no way to confirming it and you have no way of knowing if I'm lying or not, for the record I hate using anecdotal evidence. 



 

 

[1feral1]

Out of repsect for these four        slain RCMP Constables, maybe we should keep the politics out of this tragedy til at least after their funerals. Personally I find it in VERY bad taste.

 

[Big Foot]

Amen to that, Wes. Politics can wait in this situation.

 

[McG]

Using this tragedy in a bubble is not a good basis for arguments for or against better police armament & tactics.  It would be similarly inappropriate to the army basing all its equipment & doctrine on the last war.

was it even a raid?

The raid was complete and the police were on site to secure it from the criminals returning during the night.  Go back and read the original thread or any news article printed today.

 

[Sheerin]

I've read a good number of articles thanks to google news and 2 hours between lectures today - http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&gl=ca&ncl=http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1109965332153_61/%3Fhub%3DCanada

What i had read was that they were orginally there for stolen property when they found evidence of an illegal grow op, then returned on thursday; I've also read conflicting reports.

This is a discussion that Canadians as a whole should have - not whether or not police should be better armed, rather should the military be used as an agent of the police.  That was my original point for discussion.

If you feel we should wait a few days, then fine, we shall pick this up later.  You can start off by explaining why you feel its okay for the military to be used in police roles.

 

[McG]

The military does not become an "agent of the police."  Military support is requested by the Soliciter General, but the military retains full operational control of its pers that are deployed to support.

 

[Southby]

Just on a side note about Police having or not having access to C8's...

I live in Edmonton, a few minutes drive from the disaster that triggered this post,
and the Edmonton Police Service do have C8's in some vehicles instead of shotguns.


My opinion is that it's a good idea to have the extra tools and equipment.
I dont have all the details of the incident as of yet, or know the full intent of how the military were going to be involved, but so far I agree that the RCMP should be better equipped, (enough man power for surveillance might have helped for instance) but I also agree that if things do get out of hand or dont go as planned, there shouldn't be a problem asking the military for help.

We in the CAF should know what its like to be under equipped and under staffed, why would we not help out another federal force if we could?

My 2 cents.

 

[tomahawk6]

I think the RCMP needs to have regional SWAT units to perform high risk raids and hostage rescue. The Army should have no role in civilian policing.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

We have some abilities they don't and as such I don't see a problem providing those specialties on a small basis.  We were there in BC for the G8 summit, the Olympics, FLQ, Oka not to mention all the natural disasters we have been a part of.

 

[The_Falcon]

I think the RCMP needs to have regional SWAT units to perform high risk raids and hostage rescue. The Army should have no role in civilian policing.

The RCMP does have regional ERTs, problem is Canada is a very spread out country.  And as was said before the military can act in aid to civil power when requested (Remember Oka).  Even if the ERT was able to respond to the incident swiftly, they might ran in to the same problems.  Not all ERT/SWAT/TRU teams have armoured vehicles at their disposal.  This incident just happened to be close to military base, that were the civil authorities could ask for armoured vehicles.