Canadian Manoeuvre Training Centre (CMTC), Wainwright

[Gunner]

Edmonton is looking real nice now.

Edmonton is a good posting...  ;D

Sorry to hear you haven't warmed up to Shilo...   

 

[GENOMS Soilder]

So with this place opening up for training, is the only way to get to train in it is with Reg forces that are based out west?
Could there be a chance of training there for somebody in Guelph at the 11th Field?
This sounds cool, and helpful for our negelected soldiers.

 

[Gunner]

CMTC has summer serials for Reserve Company Groups to go through but I haven't seen many details on how this will happen.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

There is now some doubt that the summer serials will actually be used by the Res F, especially given that the Res F will have a component being put through with each Reg F rotation.  The latest I have is that there is no plan at present to use the contracted August serials and that the Res community is currently re-examining this whole thing.  The serials could well go to small Reg F sub-units or not used at all.

There are a variety of problems connected with the summer serials:

-  How to decide which Coy Gps (1 per Area) will go through?
-  Who pays for transport, Class A, etc.?
-  Which has the higher priority - CMTC serials or individual summer training?
-  What standard are the Res units to be held to?
-  What role does OPFOR play?
-  What do the Reserves get by way of benefit, particularly when we realize that most of the instrumented kit isn't used by the Reserves?

Lots of questions and few answers.  This hasn't moved at all since I first became involved with this (on the peripheries) two years ago.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There is now some doubt that the summer serials will actually be used by the Res F, especially given that the Res F will have a component being put through with each Reg F rotation.   The latest I have is that there is no plan at present to use the contracted August serials and that the Res community is currently re-examining this whole thing.   The serials could well go to small Reg F sub-units or not used at all.

The points seem valid. Even worse, I'm not shocked or suprised by it.

 

[pbi]

There is now some doubt that the summer serials will actually be used by the Res F, especially given that the Res F will have a component being put through with each Reg F rotation.   The latest I have is that there is no plan at present to use the contracted August serials and that the Res community is currently re-examining this whole thing.   The serials could well go to small Reg F sub-units or not used at all.

There are a variety of problems connected with the summer serials:

-   How to decide which Coy Gps (1 per Area) will go through?
-   Who pays for transport, Class A, etc.?
-   Which has the higher priority - CMTC serials or individual summer training?
-   What standard are the Res units to be held to?
-   What role does OPFOR play?
-   What do the Reserves get by way of benefit, particularly when we realize that most of the instrumented kit isn't used by the Reserves?

Lots of questions and few answers.   This hasn't moved at all since I first became involved with this (on the peripheries) two years ago.

Our point of view in 38 CBG once the Managed Readiness (TF) program stood up was that we were probably not going to see these former "Res" serials anyway. We fully expected that the pri for Res slots would go to those Res Coy Gps doing DLOC trg(as it should). But, to be honest, if all we were going to get out of it was a single coy gp anyway, it wasn't much of a loss. Summer remains the time for us to fight the IT fight-as the death of ACTIVE EDGE showed, the conflict with IT and CT in the Res is hard to resolve if we try to cram everything into the summer-IT just takes too long and consumes too many of our resources. We traditionally do our Bde Lvl 4 FTX in early May.

Cheers.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Exactly - and this has been going round and round since 2002, when the only area really interested in using the allocated Res F summer serials was LFWA.  The others saw it (as I recall) as being of very limited value.  There remains, though, much potential for the dismounted company suites of kit procured by the project.

 

[McG]

Thoughts on CMTC from the thread "Modular Manoeuvre Battalion."

CMTC has an interesting dilemma. How far to you dumb down the enemy? A clever enemy combat team fighting on it's own ground and armed with simulated MBTs and ATGW will be able to crush a LAV equipped bn in the attack. It's quite possible that even a force armed only with RPGs, mines and small arms will be able to fight the LAV force to a standstill. The results could be counter productive. Your unit is going on ops and you spend three weeks being pummeled, how's your morale?

  How much lee way will the enemy force have? How much deception can they use? Who has the initiative? What is the force ratio? How are Cdn commanders to react to casualties? We've seen what casualties actually do to Cdn ops in Afghanistan. I assume we will suspend reality on this score.

  Can you imagine the mayhem a hundred keen troops given free rein will play? I must admit free play enemy would be fun but I think there will be considerable constraints placed on the enemy. We can't embarrass the CO can we.

 

[pbi]

Exactly - and this has been going round and round since 2002, when the only area really interested in using the allocated Res F summer serials was LFWA.   The others saw it (as I recall) as being of very limited value.   There remains, though, much potential for the dismounted company suites of kit procured by the project.

Can that gear be used outside the CMTC environment? Because if it can, we'd much rather use it in our Bde AO than go through all the hassle of dragging people to Waimwright to do Lvl 3/4 trg. We can (and regularly have...) do that type of trg quite well ourselves. If we can do the trg locally, we will be able to do it more often and get more people through it.

Cheers.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Not that I'm personally interested (and this may have been brought up before) but is the Enemy force going to be a posting like in Kalifornia or a tasking?

 

[Mortar guy]

Can that gear be used outside the CMTC environment? Because if it can, we'd much rather use it in our Bde AO than go through all the hassle of dragging people to Waimwright to do Lvl 3/4 trg. We can (and regularly have...) do that type of trg quite well ourselves. If we can do the trg locally, we will be able to do it more often and get more people through it.

pbi,

You may already be aware of this but as part of the WES contract, we are buying the following:

- Instrumented BG WES suite + OPFOR for CMTC
- Non-instrumented Cbt Tm WES suite + OPFOR for CTC
- 13 x non-instrumented dismounted infantry company suites + OPFOR

Those 13 dismounted coy suites are available for local training and, in my opinion, would be ideal for those Res Bdes that aren't sending Coy Gps to CMTC in any particular year. I know that DAT and DLSP have not yet worked out exactly where these 13 suites will go but my infantry math tells me it works out to one suite for each Reg and Res Bde.

MG

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

You're bang on.   The original non-instumented suite was meant for Gagetown (if I recall correctly).   The other suites were added later.

The problem is that they have not worked out who will control the new dismounted suites.   LFDTS wishes central control (ie: allocation by CMTC), while others want them permanently distributed.   Once that's worked out, it's all good.

By the way, CFL:  there are a significant number of pers posted to the OPFOR (can't remember the numbers right now).  It will be augmented by taskings as required.  If you need specifics, I can provide them on Monday from work.

TR

 

[McG]

Not that I'm personally interested (and this may have been brought up before) but is the Enemy force going to be a posting like in Kalifornia or a tasking?

There are permanent OPFOR positions.  I think it is a rifle coy, tank tp, engr tp, and a few other elements.  Posting messages have already been cut for guys to start filling it this summer. 

 

[TCBF]

Some interesting points above.  lets see;

1. Reserve serials:  Time to pee or get off the pot here, lads.  we are paying CUBIC 10 million bucks a year for the privledge of giving us a game of laser tag second to none.  If the Militia decides they don't want to play, because the troops they purport to be able to lead might lose confidence in their leaders once they all end up with little red lights flashing on their harnesses, it might be time to evaluate the money spent on the Militia.  An individual would have to be an IDIOT to turn down a learning experience that a fully instrumented serial would provide.  Don't bother asking CUBIC for the money back, either. (C, U, Bastids In Court=CUBIC).

2. OPFOR will be task tailored for the TF, msn, and BTS.  Last fall, at Suffield, upon hearing that a BG could only launch 13 of 24 Challenger 2s across the LOD, the Brit Bde Comd immediately adjusted the OPFOR to keep the exercise realistic.  OPFOR is a trg tool - no more, no less. This ain't a total freeplay 'CERTAIN CHALLENGE 88' in Bavaria.  OPFOR will be given orders and missions to accomplish as well.  OPFOR will include Terrorists, COB (Civillians on the Battlefield) and all kinds of nasty stuff.  It might not be 3rd Guards Tank Army of the GSFG, but it will still give you a hard time.

3.  The non-instrumented gear is just a teaser, the full meal instrumented deal is the way to go.  why seetle for less? 

4. "The others saw it (as I recall) as being of very limited value."  I admit, there are a lot of people out there who think anything more than signing in and going straight to the Mess is of limited value.  Hopefully, as we put the next generation through a fully instrumented mnvr box, they will identify all of their slackers and non-hackers and cull their respective herds.  One can only hope.  eventually, people will be joining because of the stories they heard of how great those summer serials could be.  We will have two Militias: One made up of those who have done it, and one made up of ythose who walk in their shadow.

Tom

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Some interesting points above.   lets see;

1. Reserve serials:   Time to pee or get off the pot here, lads.   we are paying CUBIC 10 million bucks a year for the privledge of giving us a game of laser tag second to none.   If the Militia decides they don't want to play, because the troops they purport to be able to lead might lose confidence in their leaders once they all end up with little red lights flashing on their harnesses, it might be time to evaluate the money spent on the Militia.   An individual would have to be an IDIOT to turn down a learning experience that a fully instrumented serial would provide.   Don't bother asking CUBIC for the money back, either. (C, U, Bastids In Court=CUBIC).

I agree 100%.  However, as I pointed out, there are some serious problems with the execution of a serial consisting of a single company per year, dismounted, in Wainwright.  Until they're worked out, I wouldn't be counting on seeing Res F rotations anytime soon.  I know that gets various people connected with LFDTS and CMTC riled up, but there is.  A more constructive approach would be of assistance to everyone.

As an aside, this isn't entirely Res F driven.  There's a school of thought that believes a "break" between rotations two and three would be a good thing and that believes the Reserves shouldn't be using CMTC independently anyway.  Thus, Reserve sub-units are embedded with their affiliated Reg F "task force".  The Col Blimps would be staying home regardless, doubtless harumphing to Reserves 2000 about the "old days".

As for the "two tier" Res F, I could argue that there's been one for at least ten years...we're already there.

 

[Infanteer]

As for the "two tier" Res F, I could argue that there's been one for at least ten years...we're already there.

No kidding - it droved me up the wall to come home from tour only to be dealing with troops that were telling me and the section commander that they couldn't make it for training because of the need to study for tests or because their other job was more important.... :threat:

 

[TCBF]

"As an aside, this isn't entirely Res F driven.  There's a school of thought that believes a "break" between rotations two and three would be a good thing and that believes the Reserves shouldn't be using CMTC independently anyway.  Thus, Reserve sub-units are embedded with their affiliated Reg F "task force". "


-Sadly true.  if we DON'T use CMTC for the summer serials, the Militia could rapidly fall behind the curve on this.  Not all reservists will end up in a Regular TF, and we have to find some way for the folks who have been holding the unit together for the last 1,000 Tuesday nights to come out and experience this.

As to the "break", the mtd eqpt fleet may be in pieces, but there is no reason we should not be able to field the WES kit and the Observer/Controllers. We ARE paying for the gear and the serial, one way or another.

The biggest stumbling bloch I can see is that we just plain run out of Mo, either from to many TFs, or some funding dispute where the summer serials start to come out of annual man-days, or some other idiocy.

Other than that, I think this is pretty well a case of "Build it, and they will come."

Tom

 

[Donut]

A couple of points I'd like to add to this, not trying to hijack it or dispute what's been said here already:

TCBF, when the US openned their NTC, they initially relieved commanders who failed on the exercises.  This practice was stopped, IIRC, because it's a learning experience, it's where commanders are supposed to make their mistakes, learn from them, and improve.  I agree it's going to be pretty crappy for morale, but I think a lot of troopies can already identify the tactically-impaired among their leadership.  Perhaps this will cement that opinion, but it may also dispell some of it, too.  If it's a pre-depolyment validation ex, that might be something else entirely.

Infanteer, there ARE jobs more important then the Mo.  What about the Com Res who also works for CSCE monitoring chatter, the Infantry WO who's also a Fire Dept battalion chief, or (cough) the medic who puts in 22 shifts a month in a real patient care environment.  They make greater contributions in a peace-time nation in their civilian employment then in their cadpats.  I know, from experience, how frustrating this is to junior leadership, but it's a bigger issue then at the coal face, and requires a national solution.

That being said, those people who are incapable of foresight in scheduling their work and school lives should reevaluate their commitments to the CF, or have it reevaluated for them.

Now, if we can commit to Mo training time at CMTC well in advance, and stick to it, perhaps attendance can become a litmus test of the reservist and the unit's abilities.

DF

 

[Pikache]

"As an aside, this isn't entirely Res F driven.  There's a school of thought that believes a "break" between rotations two and three would be a good thing and that believes the Reserves shouldn't be using CMTC independently anyway.  Thus, Reserve sub-units are embedded with their affiliated Reg F "task force". "


-Sadly true.  if we DON'T use CMTC for the summer serials, the Militia could rapidly fall behind the curve on this.  Not all reservists will end up in a Regular TF, and we have to find some way for the folks who have been holding the unit together for the last 1,000 Tuesday nights to come out and experience this.

As to the "break", the mtd eqpt fleet may be in pieces, but there is no reason we should not be able to field the WES kit and the Observer/Controllers. We ARE paying for the gear and the serial, one way or another.

The biggest stumbling bloch I can see is that we just plain run out of Mo, either from to many TFs, or some funding dispute where the summer serials start to come out of annual man-days, or some other idiocy.

Other than that, I think this is pretty well a case of "Build it, and they will come."

Tom

The question is how long will these serials be? More importantly, how many people can actually show up to form a company?

The ever present res problems...

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

The question is how long will these serials be? More importantly, how many people can actually show up to form a company?

The ever present res problems...

If I recall correctly, the serials ended up to be nine days actually training - one per LF Area in the summer time - after the deployment, redeployment, etc. are factored in (using the well-known Res F "two week" rule).  The force structure was/is for a dismounted company "group", fully instrumented (which means that CUBIC provides all the feedback, weapons effect simulation, etc.).

Attendence is one major issue.  The Res F is already to have a group go through as part of each Reg F serial.  These will be the "sharp end" guys, IMHO.  Then, if the other serials are to see any use, the Res F will have to generate four more company groups.  The serials aren't large enough to act as an Area concentration, so the sub-units proceeding through CMTC would have to be selected somehow.  This complicates things even more - who gets to go?  For Roto 12, we had to go national to generate a single company for deployment.

Finally, funding is (as far as I know) an Area/Bde/unit responsibility.  Factor in pay, airlift, etc. and it becomes quite expensive - all to train a very select group of Reservists.

There is no doubt that we are building an amazing facility in Wainwright and that the training value will be enormous for those soldiers given the opportunity to participate.  Getting the Reserves involved is a "must", but the mechanics of actually doing so are more complicated than meets the eye.

Cheers,

TR