Canadian Attack Helicopters

[Kirkhill]

At the risk of incurring Michael O'Leary's wrath and being relegated to the "Let's Buy These Aircraft Thread" (which see) I want to follow up on the plea from 2Bravo to have Heavy Lift AND Escort Helicopters on his flight line by tomorrow morning.

You're all going to groan, but just getting CH47s is not enough.  They need escorts, and that means attack helicopters.  Without the attack helcopters we will still be beholden to other countries to move around theatre.

Sorry, just throwing that out there,

2B

Let's assume for the moment that the editor of the Toronto Star knows whereof he/she speaks and that this statement from their editorial is an accurate reflection of government intent:

And now that Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor has addressed the mobility issue, he is focusing on buying assault ships, Stryker mobile gun systems and attack helicopters.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1151617836064&call_pageid=970599119419

The working assumption, when discussing "attack helicopters" is that we are considering Apaches or Cobras.  Some other aircraft such as Tigers, Rooivalks, A129s, even Black Sharks and Havocs are available as well.  (Here's a page with links to descriptions of these  -  http://www.army-technology.com/projects/#Attack_Helicopters )

There is however a "potential"  "home-grown" solution that the US is looking at as a complement to the Apaches and as a replacement for the Kiowa Warrior - Bell's ARH (Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter - http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/aircraft/military/ARH/bellarh-72.pdf )

What caused me to consider posting this this morning was a linkage on the performance specs on the Med/Hvy Helicopter and the information supplied by Bell on their Engine Specs for the ARH.

The lift helicopter calls for a range of 100 km with a full load

Internal lift – Cabin space to accommodate an infantry platoon (30 soldiers) with full combat equipment, including weapons, body armour, rucksacks, rations and communications (4,763 kilograms).

External lift – Lift multiple loads, including a lightweight field howitzer and associated equipment (a minimum of 5,443 kilograms).

Range – Flying endurance to ensure a relevant radius of operation (a minimum of 100 kilometres) with either the internal or external load described as above and at the temperatures and altitudes defined below to effectively cover CF tactical areas of responsibility.

Temperature and altitude – Power and endurance to accomplish the lift and range parameters defined above, at altitudes and temperatures found in the most likely Canadian Forces theatres of operations (1,220 metres above sea level and 35 degrees Celsius).

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1968

Curiously the ARH brochure cites the identical Height and Temperature performance specs (converted to English units).  As well the quoted range and endurance  (2.33 hours and 362 km) seem to be in keeping with the demands of escorting another helicopter on a 100 km mission (100 km each way) and leave a little loiter time.  It struck me, working from a position of limited knowledge, that the original specs on the Lift helicopter requirements were quite modest given the capabilities of the Chinook, supposedly the favoured contender.  I thought that might have been to ensure that the EH101 got a look in.  But suppose it is to make the Lift compatible with the Escort?

The US Army has ordered 368 of the ARH from Bell Textron.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?prod=60924&session=dae.21605936.1151779242.RKbBqsOa9dUAADFXWQY&modele=jdc_1

The basic helicopter is being assembled at Bell Textron in Mirabel and transferred to Fort Worth for weaponizing.

http://press.arrivenet.com/government/article.php/676878.html

Although Boeing might be expected to compete for this order with Apache, Bell and Boeing are co-operating on the manufacture of the V22 Osprey.

http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/v22/index.htm

So all this by way of preamble.

To the question:  Would the Bell ARH be an acceptable "Escort/Attack/Recce" solution for 2B?  How about for Duey and friends?

Especially seeing as how it is in production and we might be able to skim a few out of the line in the near term to accompany 4-6 CHAPS CH-47Ds delivered by Boeing from the US Army's pool of refurbishable Chinooks.

CH-47D and Cargo Helicopter Airframe Procurement Support (CHAPS)
Currently, the U.S. Army and international countries operate over 600 CH-47D Chinooks. This model will be operated and supported through 2018 by the U.S. Army and Boeing until the CH-47F is in full production. The CHAPS program provides for the sale of flight-ready CH-47D Chinooks under "Exchange and Sales" regulations. Under this program, select D-Model Chinooks from the U.S. Army fleet are available to military users and service organizations worldwide providing them affordable aircraft fully capable and easily up-gradable to include any future system provided in the CH-47D. CHAPS provides countries affordable alternatives to more advanced aircraft and enables users to support military operations, medical and disaster relief, search and rescue, fire fighting and civil support with reliable, cost-efficient helicopters.

http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/ch47d/index.htm

Would it be any easier for Griffon pilots to transition to the Bell 407 ARH than to the AH-64 or Cobra?

 

[vonGarvin]

Kirkhill
Very good post (and refreshingly full of references).  I think that 2B hit the nail on the head with regards to the escort requirement for our helicopters.  Having said that, in the near term, just having our own lift would drastically reduce our dependancy on 'others' for stuff.  I hope that escort helicopters (of whatever variety) do show up, and soon!

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Could we not develop an assault version of the Cyclone much like the armed UH1s in Vietnam?

 

[George Wallace]

Does the Cyclone have doors on both sides for the gunmounts?

 

[Armymatters]

Could we not develop an assault version of the Cyclone much like the armed UH1s in Vietnam?

Isn't the Cyclone a little big to be acting as helicopter gunships?

 

[GAP]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?prod=60924&session=dae.21605936.1151779242.RKbBqsOa9dUAADFXWQY&modele=jdc_1

Press Releases
This section contains only official communiques issued by industry, government agencies, international organizations or other agencies which defense-aerospace.com has determined are of interest to users.
Communiques are posted free of charge

Has anyone read the list of press releases coming out of other countries for upgrading their equipment? Getting our stuff quickly is going to be a b*&*ch  what with all this stuff on order. These companies are swimming in billions of $ of orders.  And that is only for the month of June
.

 

[Guardian]

It sounds like a great idea (knowing nothing about aircraft as I do).

The problem that pops to mind is this: the government is able to do a quick buy of the Chinook simply because there really isn't a lot of competition in that lift bracket, and also because we have institutional experience with that bird. It's politically justifiable to single-source this contract through the ACAN process.

It would be not nearly as easy to do so with the ARH. There are a lot of competing designs out there that politically would have to be given a chance to compete. That might lead to a full evaluation and procurement process that could deliver the escorts years after the Chinooks.

Unless the government says, "Well, it's an urgent operational requirement to get escorts, and so we are using the ACAN process to get this Canadian-built reconnaissance helo."

Would that fly politically?

 

[Kirkhill]

Helicopter Base Price     New Direct Operating Cost / Hr    M.A.U.W.   Empty Weight    Useful Load    Max Sling Load    Max Range **    Fast Cruise    HOGE ceiling ISA
S-92         $13mil         $2200                                       26500 lbs   16875 lbs           9625 lbs        10000 lbs            600 nm              153 knots      7000 ft     
Bell 407    $1500 000    $ 350                                        5000 lbs     2653 lbs            2347 lbs        2646 lbs              330 nm              133 knots      10450 ft 

http://www.helinews.com/multicomparison.shtml
http://www.helinews.com/turbinecomparison.shtml

I don't think we are thinking quite the same things here Ex-Dragoon.  For 1 S-92 Cyclone frame you can buy 8 407 ARH frames.

And given that you can carry two ARHs in a C130 a space <2.7m high x 3.1m wide by 12.2m long (15.3m with ramp)
http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/aircraft/military/ARH/bellarh-72.pdf 
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRC-130J.htm

while the S-92, even folded is going to occupy a space something like 4.7m high (rotor hub) by 3.9m wide (wingstubs) by at least 13m (my guess with folding tail)
http://www.sikorsky.com/file/popup/0,9604,1841,00.pdf

Then it would seem likely that a BHS could transport a few more of them and the government might be able to buy a few more of them as well.

As to delivery on these things GAP - one of the advantages of working with the US Army on ops is that the US Army gets to decide whether to release half-a-dozen CH-47Ds out of a fleet of 500 and a couple of dozen ARHs  out of a fleet of 368 (not including AH-64 and existing Kiowas, etc) that might impact their operations in 5 to 10 years, or equip the Canadians to take some of their workload tomorrow (or at least in a year or so).  Which do you think would be most appealing to a US General?

 

[GAP]

As to delivery on these things GAP - one of the advantages of working with the US Army on ops is that the US Army gets to decide whether to release half-a-dozen CH-47Ds out of a fleet of 500 and a couple of dozen ARHs  out of a fleet of 368 (not including AH-64 and existing Kiowas, etc) that might impact their operations in 5 to 10 years, or equip the Canadians to take some of their workload tomorrow (or at least in a year or so).  Which do you think would be most appealing to a US General?

Excellent point....taken. The good will and confidence is there at the moment, maybe it will come true...

 

[Kirkhill]

Good point about the competition Guardian - if we are looking at the "lightweight" end of things I guess these might be some of the other options:

Eurocopter Fennec - http://www.eurocopter.com/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?mode=&noeu_id=92&lang=EN
MD500-600 Explorer Series - http://www.luh-explorer.com/

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Isn't the Cyclone a little big to be acting as helicopter gunships?

I never mentioned anythibg about a helicopter gunship though....re-read my post.

 

[couchcommander]

What about putting m134 miniguns on the CH-47's rather than arming some cyclones specifically for assault?

*edit* a la

 

[Guardian]

What about putting m134 miniguns on the CH-47's rather than arming some cyclones specifically for assault?

One of the air force guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that one (rather grim) advantage of having escorts is that if a SAM were fired at the Chinook, it has a smaller target with just one or two aboard that can "take a bullet" instead of the Chinook itself with 30 or 40 troops or mission-critical kit aboard. The miniguns also don't have the range of an independent escort to deal with threats.

 

[couchcommander]

Oh yea, I am not saying no escorts - that is definitely a good idea IMO.

Ex-Dragoon seemed to support a medium lift chopper being armed to carry troops into dangerous situations, thus his post re: the cyclones. I was just suggesting if we were to go down that route, why not just arm the CH-47's?

As well, that way even if we don't get escorts, they are not defenseless.

Fire away! :warstory:

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I am looking at a common air frame for commonality of spare parts and training. After all the Mi 24 Hind concept seem to work real well for the Russians. Just up armour the Cyclone, perhaps put some wing stubs (AIr Firce types would that be possible?), add a command and control comm suite, some CRV7 pods and a chin mounted 50..,voila instant assault chopper.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I'm fairly certain that the CH-47 will be armed with at least C6s.  Miniguns would be cool, but there may be some weight issues associated with that.  Still, the CH-47 should be focused on transporting troops and stores.  Just because you can arm an HLVW doesn't mean that it goes looking for trouble or doesn't need an escort.

Dedicated AHs would allow for escorts for Chinooks and medevac birds while also being able to go out and provide fire support to troops in contact.  I like the AH-64 because it has been proven in combat and is in service with a number of our allies.

Cheers,

2B

 

[Armymatters]

I am looking at a common air frame for commonality of spare parts and training. After all the Mi 24 Hind concept seem to work real well for the Russians. Just up armour the Cyclone, perhaps put some wing stubs (AIr Firce types would that be possible?), add a command and control comm suite, some CRV7 pods and a chin mounted 50..,voila instant assault chopper.

The problem is that when the Hind was introduced, the Russians were forced to change the tactics they used in terms of helicopter warfare (the Hind was not very maneuverable, so the Russians changed the tactics so that Hinds operated in groups, converging on a target from all angles). In all, the Russians found out that it was not worth combining transportation and an attack role together in one airframe, and that is why the Russians very early on in the 1980's ordered the development of an replacement. The thing is that an armed Cyclone variant would have "shoot me down, I am a easy target" written all over it because it is simply, a big target. Attack helos usually have a small frontal area, and a compact airframe, which allows for greater maneuverability, and also presents a smaller target to shoot at as well. Using the Cyclone as an attack or armed helicopter would be wasting resources and putting the people that operate them in greater jeopardy than a more dedicated helo, IMHO.

Dedicated AHs would allow for escorts for Chinooks and medevac birds while also being able to go out and provide fire support to troops in contact.  I like the AH-64 because it has been proven in combat and is in service with a number of our allies.

I am thinking more of the Bell AH-1Z Super Cobra: it's a proven helo as well, cheap, in service with many allies, and marinized, meaning that we can launch lots of them off the BHS, as they take up less space on ship.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Rather than combining lift and attack; has anyone revisited recce and attack as the principal dual-purpose airframe: Kiowa D, perhaps?

(And please, don't reinvent the Comanche concept ... too expensive.)

 

[a_majoor]

The Cyclone is derived from the Blackhawk, so if we were to demand some commonality, then a Cyclone + Blackhawk fleet would be the ticket. I seem to recall the Blackhawk was offered in an armed version to the RAAF, although they went for the Tiger instead. The Blackhawk is still a pretty big aircraft, so the SAM/AAA problem would still exist.

For the really dedicated kit bashers out there, a Cobra airframe with the engines, transmissions and rotors of a Blackhawk would give a degree of commonality and probably some performance enhancement as well. An armed recce helicopter would be next best, and perhaps an armed UAV could serve the purpose as well.

 

[Armymatters]

The Cyclone is derived from the Blackhawk, so if we were to demand some commonality, then a Cyclone + Blackhawk fleet would be the ticket. I seem to recall the Blackhawk was offered in an armed version to the RAAF, although they went for the Tiger instead. The Blackhawk is still a pretty big aircraft, so the SAM/AAA problem would still exist.

For the really dedicated kit bashers out there, a Cobra airframe with the engines, transmissions and rotors of a Blackhawk would give a degree of commonality and probably some performance enhancement as well. An armed recce helicopter would be next best, and perhaps an armed UAV could serve the purpose as well.

The AH-1Z Super Cobra uses the GE T700 Turboshaft engines, the same type found in the EH-101, and Cyclones that are already in service or will shortly enter service with the CF. On top of that, it is mechanically the same as the Bell UH-1Y, down to the tail, engines, transmission, and rotor. Heck, even the avionics, and cockpit displays are essentially the same.