Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT

[Cloud Cover]

FYI: we are NOT getting the "PSO" variant.

I expect it will be something less than 8 hours before the femme de institute Rideau arrett les war group latch on to that piece of information. 

 

[Hebridean]

Several things.

Will the Leopard C2's be going to reserve units?  I believe some reservists would probably be drooling over such an opportunity.  Let's keep these old lasses as it will provide more opportunities for reservists to be deployed abroad in the armoured capacity.  

Maybe some of these new Leopards should get some of the coyote recce kit put on them?  (i.e for every squadron one of the tanks should have coyote gear).   Information and intelligence is a force enabler as we all know.  

I do have some criticisms on how the military brass are patting themselves on the back on this one.  Just a few a years ago Hillier (Iron Rick) and company convinced the government that tanks were no longer necessary, hence the proposed mobile gun system acquisition.  I also like who that has been now spun into a Liberal government decision, rather than a military one.  The military brass gave the Liberal government very bad advice and now it is being spun politically.  Ridiculous. Leopard 2's good have been in Afganistan years ago if the brass had given the right advice.   Also,  I believe Hillier owes Canadian Forces armoured units an apology for almost destroying them.  

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think it was more of a case of trying to make lemonade from lemons, the Liberals would have been happy to get rid of the tanks and replace them white UN marked Prius cars, going for the MGS was the least worst option.

 

[Hebridean]

he flower power liberals were certainly helped by the face that even former tankers like Hillier thought they were no longer neccessary.  Can't blame the Liberals if the military agreed with them.

 

[vonGarvin]

Several things.

Will the Leopard C2's be going to reserve units?  I believe some reservists would probably be drooling over such an opportunity.  Let's keep these old lasses as it will provide more opportunities for reservists to be deployed abroad in the armoured capacity.  

Maybe some of these new Leopards should get some of the coyote recce kit put on them?  (i.e for every squadron one of the tanks should have coyote gear).   Information and intelligence is a force enabler as we all know.  

I do have some criticisms on how the military brass are patting themselves on the back on this one.  Just a few a years ago Hillier (Iron Rick) and company convinced the government that tanks were no longer necessary, hence the proposed mobile gun system acquisition.  I also like who that has been now spun into a Liberal government decision, rather than a military one.  The military brass gave the Liberal government very bad advice and now it is being spun politically.  Ridiculous. Leopard 2's good have been in Afganistan years ago if the brass had given the right advice.   Also,  I believe Hillier owes Canadian Forces armoured units an apology for almost destroying them.  

Actually, first thing: get back in your lane.  Your post is full of misconceptions and half-truths and outright falsehoods

1:  The Leo C2 is a maintenance intensive vehicle.  Unless reserve units can support the maintenance of said vehicle, then I doubt they would get them.  Nice idea, though.
2:  Putting Coyote kit on a leopard would be like putting tits on a bull.  Cows have tits, bulls don't.  There's a reason for it.  If you don't know the reason for why this is in the bovine world, then you shouldn't be talking about anything to do with tanks.
3:  "Iron Rick" et al had NOTHING to do with the whole MGS affair.  Minister McCallum announced the purchase, much to the surprise of DND, one day in the House of Commons.  A wheeled replacement to the tank was indeed looked at by the military several years prior to that sudden announcement in 2003 that recommended AGAINST that type of replacement.  One factor: look at the number they wished to purchase: 66.  Why 66?  Because when asked how many MGS 650 million would buy, GM Defence answered "66".  There is no other reason why that number.
Then, as any loyal public servant would do, "Iron Rick" supported his masters (the people of Canada) and did the best he could and make do with the tools that Canada gave the Armed Forces.  Remember, the CF does not make policy, we enforce the will of our masters: the Citizens of Canada.

Finally, the only person who owes an apology is you, for wasting the last 10 minutes of my life.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Hebridean:

You don't really know what you're talking about.  The Army abandoned attempts to procure tanks after it became painfully obvious that the government(s) of the day wouldn't support the purchase of such an "offensive" weapon.  Once that became clear, the Army - and Hillier - had to settle on the next best thing, the MGS.  We all hated the MGS and had the simulation data to prove why, but it was better than nothing.

As for deploying tanks to Afghanistan, the request for tanks came after Op MEDUSA late last summer.  It was a request from theatre based on some very specific lessons learned from that operation.  Deployment of tanks had never popped up on the radar (in the Afghan context) prior to that.  It's hardly a case of the "brass" (and your use of the term illustrates your prejudice) dropping the ball.

The C2s won't be cascaded to any Canadian units (let alone Reserve units), unless I'm sadly misinformed.  The Leopard 1 ceases to be supported by the spares system and by KMW in 2012 and will rapidly become an orphan fleet.  Moreover, the tank cannot be fitted with the Coyote's surveillance kit - period - there's no room.  Where would the Surv Op sit?  In the loader's hatch?  In the coffin bin?

HS: +10

 

[SiG_22_Qc]

I'd like to point out the fact that the Israeli MerkavaIV got stalled by Hezbollah's RPG-29  :skull:.(or correct me if i'm wrong).

Israel wont give out how many they lost and i dont expect Hezbollah to give the real number neither.

But how will canadian army cope with that blow-a-tank-from-nowhere attacks with equivalent weaponery.
:'(

Fighting 40 years old equipment raggy fighters in Afghanistan is one thing. Fighting brand-new russian RPG's is another.

And i dont think we can describe the Israeli army has a bunch of amateurs...

I guess... Leo2A6M would be a perfect fit in Afghanistan as Talibans got nothin' to fight them. BUT...well.. i guess the Leo 2 is the logical linear replacement for the Leo-1. :blotto:

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Considering Taliban RPG's were bouncing off of less armoured vehicles I think and hope it will be a while before they get the stuff used in the latest Israel clash.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I'd like to point out the fact that the Israeli MerkavaIV got stalled by Hezbollah's RPG-29  :skull:.(or correct me if i'm wrong).

Israel wont give out how many they lost and i dont expect Hezbollah to give the real number neither.

But how will canadian army cope with that blow-a-tank-from-nowhere attacks with equivalent weaponery.
:'(

Using time tested Canadian tactics to counter such things.  "Blow a tank from nowhere"...heh.  You have no idea what you're talking about.

Fighting 40 years old equipment raggy fighters in Afghanistan is one thing. Fighting brand-new russian RPG's is another.

Methinks you underestimate the "raggy fighters" in Afghanistan...

And i dont think we can describe the Israeli army has a bunch of amateurs...

Actually, yes we can.  In fact, the majority of them are.

I guess... Leo2A6M would be a perfect fit in Afghanistan as Talibans got nothin' to fight them. BUT...well.. i guess the Leo 2 is the logical linear replacement for the Leo-1. :blotto:

And what do you, with your obvious grasp of the complexities of tank tactics, suggest we deploy otherwise?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You will also note that Hezbollah had 5 years to prepare the ground and their tactics. The Terrain funneled mechanized forces into obvious routes, which allowed the bad guys to get flank and rear shots. Yet the actually numbers of totally destroyed tanks is quite small, I saw a very good estimate and it is much less than you think. Most tanks were recovered and repaired. The ATGM’s did not work as well as many people thought. As in 73, the IDF got stung, readapted and squeezed the enemy out of their defenses. Hezbollah needed the cease-fire far more than Israel. A lot of lessons have been learned and the IDF is in self-correct mode, the Hezbollah will not get a second chance like it had.

 

[Mourning]

Mourning - could you be a good fellow and translate this for us linguistically challenged types?  ;D  Your Mindef people haven't got round to issuing the English language version yet.

Near as I can make out you are selling us 20 x 2A6 and 80 x 2A4.

Would the Engineer types be based on the A4 model?  Because that would seem to leave us with a fleet of 20 x 2A6 with 20 x 2A4 to be upgraded to the same standard (possibly 2A6M), 40 x 2A4 to be upgraded to a lesser standard and 20 x 2A4 based engineer and support variants?

http://www.mindef.nl/actueel/nieuws/2007/04/20070412_verkoop_leopard.aspx

Sure, no problem.

Here goes:

"Defensie heeft verkoopt honderd Leopard gevechtstanks verkocht aan Canada. De overeenkomst werd bekend gemaakt tijdens het bezoek van minister van Defensie, Eimert van Middelkoop, aan Canada. Het gaat om twintig Leopard’s 2 A6 en tachtig Leopard’s 2 A4.

Het afstoten van de tanks is onderdeel van de reductie van gevechtstanks waartoe Defensie al eerder besloot. Nederland houdt honderdtien Leopard’s 2 A6 tanks operationeel.

De aan Canada verkochte Leopard’s 2 A6 zijn vorig jaar volledig bijgewerkt. Defensie gaat als onderdeel van de overeenkomst de scholing van Canadese instructeurs verzorgen. De trainingen beginnen in mei.

Minister van Defensie Eimert van Middelkoop woont in Canada de ministeriële "Regional Command South" bijeenkomst in Quebec bij."

TRANSLATION:
"The Ministry of Defence has sold a hundred Leopard Main Battle Tanks to Canada. De agreement was made public during the visit of Minister of Defence, Eimert van Middelkoop, to Canada. It concerns twenty Leopard 2 A6's and eighty Leopard 2 A4's.

The disposal of the tanks is part of the reduction of Main Battle Tanks to which the Ministry had already previously planned. The Netherlands will keep a hundred and ten operational Leopard 2 A6's.

The Leopard 2 A6 now sold to Canada were completely refurbished/overhauled last year. The Ministry will as part of the agreement take care of the training of Canadian instructors. Those will start in may.

Minister of Defence Eimert van Middelkoop is currently active at the ministerial "Regional Command South" meeting in Quebec."

Ok, a little more, but not much more clarity. You will receive 80 A4 models and 20 A6 models. I would expect out of a standpoint of standardization and logistics, etc. that those will all be upgraded to the A6 standard. But, that's only logic dictating and we all know how politicians can be concerning "logic" and "defence" in one sentence  .

Regarding the ARV's. Those are called "Buffels". I'm not sure on which variants your country will receive. ONE thing you should REALLY check though is the fire extinguishing equipment. There was a little row here that they weren't checked here for nearly a decade!  :-X. So, whoever is going to work with it ... check that. NONE of our MBT's has clearance now :. Supposed to be fixed immediately now... for us. So, check that.

Btw the Leopard 2 A6 is widely regarded as one of the best two MBTs in the world. The newest Abrahams versions are equal, so consider that a shared nr. 1 spot. Anyone telling you ONE of the other is superior is dribbling. EIther way BIG upgrade for you guys in Afghanistan. If there ever is a comparable operationin the south Medusa last year then the Taliban really would wish they were back in Pakistan.

Regards,

Mourning  8)

 

[vonGarvin]

I would argue that the Leo 2A6 is moderately ahead of the M1A2 SEP (latest?) variant.  But that's just an argument for beers, for both are very fine MBTs.  (Fine?  Whom am I kidding?  They both ROCK!)

I know a guy who knows a guy  ;D who just may be in a position to check those fire extinguishers.  Thanks for the heads up!

 

[PJOsborne]

Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject, but is there a significant difference between the Leopard 2A6 and the 2A6M model? I know the A6 is supposed to have the longer 55cal barrel as well as the upgrades to the armour and various other systems over previous models, but I'm just wondering if there's any sort of difference between the two?

 

[vonGarvin]

From what I've read on the internet, the A6M is basically an A6 with more mine protection.  Other than that, any differences, if any, aren't public knowledge.

 

[PJOsborne]

HS, thanks for that.

 

[Mourning]

From what I've read on the internet, the A6M is basically an A6 with more mine protection.  Other than that, any differences, if any, aren't public knowledge.

That is correct.

 

[ironduke57]

IIRC the driver seat is new. The new one is hanging on the roof and has no connection with the bottom. Also the lowest row of ammo beside´s the driver is gone.

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[Trogdor]

I would just like to jump in here to ask if there is any definitive answer as to what type of Leo 2s we are buying.  I've heard 40 2A4's and 40 Leo 2 A6s and support varriants and I've heard all A4s and all A6s.  What I want to know is what exactly are we getting? 

Cheers

 

[Haletown]

I still think the Aussies got the better deal with the M1A2's...

don't the Aussies have beer fridges bolted onto their M1's ??   

 

[Kirkhill]

Vele dank for the translation Mourning.