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Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT

Petamocto said:
Yes that is the impression I got as well (that the manouevre area is the open desert for the most part).

The "one" city is rarely traversed by the Leos, but I do see some merit to what he's saying in the populated area just to the east of where they have been parked.

If you've driven through there you've likely been pelted with rocks like I have with kids ducking in alleys or lobbing them over the tall walls.

I suppose it's not that much of a stretch to think it could be a grenade, but I'm sure it's just a matter of taking them down for those 5 minutes.  If I'm a tanker and know I'm going to be in the open desert for several hours then I think it's a great idea.

True enough.

Although we normally rolled before day break/ just after or early evening and  the umbrellas were collapsed....so it's a mute point.

I was more worried about the RPG, SAF and IED threat to be honest.

In the desert for several hours? Naw, try over 18 in one day during one OP. 70 tons gets real hot and retains it's heat overnight. That little umbrella allows the crews to be a little less sun-fucked and able to concentrate on the important things....like covering the boys conducting the operations.

Regards

 
Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
In the desert for several hours? Naw, try over 18 in one day during one OP...

Haha, yes I guess I should have been less vague than "several".

I am all for anything you can do to alleviate duration-based stress that results in inattentiveness/fatigue.
 
Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
We never operated in areas where that was a concern at all. Never carried jerry cans of fuel either. A couple 100 liters of fuel doesn't make a dent in a vehicle that takes over 1100L to fill.

Regards

Very true WRT the fuel tank amount, ha! Thats a good way to put it. But, I guess we did things different, as we carried Jerry cans of diesel, and OMD-13 on ASLAVs, along with Jerry cans of the more precious H2O.

Of all the M1's Bradleys, and M109's I observed in the city and surrounding areas, I seen no shade shelters, but on the smaller veh's like the Humvee's they (US) used them often (and they were made locally in Army workshops), and I can remember (sadly) not long before our RIP came in, on a local patrol out of our FOB (Union III), an insurgent had lobbed a frag on to this vehicle, and it rested in the shade shelter cam net (supported by chain link) and detonated, killing the bloke in the turret of the Humvee. There was nothing he could do but attempt to take cover.

The advantage to these shade shelters aside from the obvious was to darken the area of the vulnerable person exposed, and worked as a sniper deterrant, and that part was sucessful. The crewman under the shelter could see out, but it was difficult to see in.

Anyways just a point to place in the back of your minds shopuld any of you use these shelters on different types of vehicles in MOUT scenerios.

Cheers,

Wes


 
I suppose the counter-argument to that (grenade sticking) point could be that it might also provide some protection against it, too (?).  Thinking of a scenario where an enemy pops out on a 3rd or 4th floor window and tries to drop a grenade Molitov Cocktail style on a vehicle passing by below.  Who knows.

Getting back to the conditions and stress-based fatigue, I think what buddy mentioned above about that soldier not getting sun-f___ed is a huge factor.  As mentioned, the vehicle is hot enough as it is, then add the stationary fatigue of standing (air sentry) or sitting (raised crew seat) for 12+ hours without walking around, and you've got all sorts of problems that make that person less and less effective, but add 12+ hours of super-hot sun to that equation and now you're really crippling that guy to be able to be vigilant and alert.

*Note: I'm still a light fighter at heart and of course I'm conditioned to think that anyone driving is weak...until I see a tank blow a hole in a mud wall killing a trigger man.  Anything we can give those guys to keep them protecting Infantry I say "sure".
 
Petamocto said:
I suppose the counter-argument to that (grenade sticking) point could be that it might also provide some protection against it, too (?).  Thinking of a scenario where an enemy pops out on a 3rd or 4th floor window and tries to drop a grenade Molitov Cocktail style on a vehicle passing by below.  Who knows.

True enough. The big thing is some things that are GTG in Afghanistan would be not on in Iraq and vice-versa.

But that's not what this thread is about, so I digress.

Getting back to the conditions and stress-based fatigue, I think what buddy mentioned above about that soldier not getting sun-f___ed is a huge factor.  As mentioned, the vehicle is hot enough as it is, then add the stationary fatigue of standing (air sentry) or sitting (raised crew seat) for 12+ hours without walking around, and you've got all sorts of problems that make that person less and less effective, but add 12+ hours of super-hot sun to that equation and now you're really crippling that guy to be able to be vigilant and alert.

With the temperatures sometimes soaring to the +70C range in Leo C2s and Leo2s it's more or less a way to cope with staving off heat stroke. The cooling vests and umbrella (which is part of the Barracuda kit) are a necessity.....not a nicety.

Regards
 
Yes the heat stress was a bastard. It would often be 48C by 0800, and climb into the low 50's by 1000h. I was often in the shooter/operator role in Type 2 and 3 ASLAVs, with the daily heat, then body armour, nomex gloves and anti-flash hood, CVC helmet, EPS goggles, and then the wind which assisted the heat index, one could dehydrate quicky. We always had heaps of water. A normal day on the outide meant about 10 litres of water gulped over the period of a day, which that water turned hot in a matter of minutes from a cold bottle, but as long as it was wet. All this then with the physical part of doing one's job by constantly covering his arcs, playing the hard target as per our TTPs.

Yes, it often reached 70C inside the ASLAVs too, which did not use their air-conditioning due to power loss and possible overheating, so all there was on the inside was small fans. The driver was always buttoned up, and the C/Comd on T2 and T3's was down also monitering his RWS screen. Only on the T1 were the Gnr and C/Comd exposed, and the shooter/Ops in T2 and T3's, so there was also a lot of dust to be eaten.

No cooling vests either, as at the time we were over there (06-07), the chemicals in the vest were toxic and fatal if introduced to the body via shrapnel, so the idea was shelved.

At times, in QRF mode, we'd wait under a tree lined street in some local f'd up neighbourhood to roll in and assist our sister patrol, if/when they got brassed up. That was kind of a treat in a way, as there was no wind or dust, but then being static for at times a few hours in a unhappy area had its drawbacks with sniper and SVBIED threat increasing.

Oh, the good ole days.

Cheers,

OWDU
 
Slightly OT, but the whole "It was 50+ C in Kandahar" and other temperature "enhancements" I've seen in this thread, and others, is just too much to handle anymore.
According to the BBC, the record high for Kandahar was 44 degrees C.  Now, I don't care who you are or where you are, but that it HOT!  Yes, your thermometer may read higher, but let us not forget that it may be getting heat from other sources, and they aren't as accurate as a meteorologist's.

Anyway, yeah, tanks.  In the sun, it's friggin' hot.  70 degrees?  We're talking death. 
 
I do agree that the air temperature padding does exist, but that does not mean a soldier can not operate in conditions that are above that.

If the air temperature is 44C, UV rays can still be reflected and absorbed by materials sush as a vehicle or clothing so the actual air the soldier is breating and touching may be hotter.

The general air temperture may be 40C, but if you are holding a thermometer in a tank hatch and it's showing 50, then that soldier's body is in 50 degree temps redargless of what the air temp is in the rest of the atmosphere or even 10 feet away.
 
Wonder who is going to get the other batch in Europe. Hopefully they will be done in situ by experienced teams.

Regards
 
Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
Wonder who is going to get the other batch in Europe. Hopefully they will be done in situ by experienced teams.

Two prototypes of the Leo2A4 Ops have been produced already.
 
Lance Wiebe said:
Two prototypes of the Leo2A4 Ops have been produced already.

Are they the one's that Chuck is going to see?
 
Really?  If so good news.

I'm not a tanker, but two years ago it was not the 2A6s with the rollers but the older (smaller) variants.

On of my best memories was seeing a Leo (C2 I think) take an IED hit on the roller, shake it off, then traverse to 3 o'clock and blow a 6' wide hole in the mud wall where the trigger man was.
 
Lance Wiebe said:
He's already been there, and has lots of pictures!

Post pix or it didn´t happen! :clubinhand:

SCNR ;D

But really some pix would be really nice. ;)

Regards,
ironduke57
 
Petamocto said:
Really?  If so good news.

I'm not a tanker, but two years ago it was not the 2A6s with the rollers but the older (smaller) variants.

On of my best memories was seeing a Leo (C2 I think) take an IED hit on the roller, shake it off, then traverse to 3 o'clock and blow a 6' wide hole in the mud wall where the trigger man was.
It would have been a C2.

Interestingly, the Leo 2 was never intended to breach, as the German concept was for Engineers to do that. 
 
Technoviking said:
Interestingly, the Leo 2 was never intended to breach, as the German concept was for Engineers to do that.

So, if the German engineers do breaches, does that mean the German artillery handles indirect fire like, oh ,mortars?  >:D
 
Different strokes for different folks. The Germans also tinkered with a Mine flail mounted on a Leo1 chassis. Looked cool, but don't know if it made it in to full production.
 
Tank Troll said:
I see they have rollers and mine ploughs on the ones in theater now also
I know we managed to put the rollers on, but last I'd heard (information is now 1 year old) both the project and KMW were saying the tank cannot take the ploughs.  Any pictures?

Tango18A said:
The Germans also tinkered with a Mine flail mounted on a Leo1 chassis. Looked cool, but don't know if it made it in to full production.
Actually, the Kieler was based on an M48A2 hull as the tank had been retired from German service but the hull offered superior mine protection.
 
Not all Leopard 2's are in Montreal  there was a leopard 2a4 at the Shearwater air show still in Dutch paint job.

As an interesting aside the Leopard C2 demo (firing blanks while on move) had to be cancelled on the second day of the airshow because a kid crawling around the tank broke it (disabling turret drive ).  For an airshow there was far more Army equipment on display than Air Force ( 1  C177, 1  Seaking &  1 Harvard II) 

Cheers
 
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