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Canada doesn’t matter to the rest of the world - and it’s our own fault

Furniture said:
Paying the USA to "make up" the difference between our NATO obligations, and our actual spending is the path to just paying the US directly to defend us.

There is no realistic situation where the Canadian public gets to off-load our defense responsibilities that doesn't lead to being a colony.
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I think the term you are looking for is Vassal State ... And we agree.
 
No doubt Canada needs to grow up.

.....

While we are debating the finer points of principle Ukrainians are dying and losing ground. They most certainly are not reclaiming lost ground.
We are no better than the Republicans and Democrats in the States.

If it makes some of you feel better then spend the shortfall with the South Koreans, the Japanese. Spend it with the Norwegians and the Swedes and the Brits (if they have anything to sell you). Spend it with the South Africans, the Israelis, Turks, Indians. I would even buy from the Chinese and the Russians. Why not? The Russians are still selling oil and gas to countries supplying Ukraine. Buy from anybody but the Yanks.

Then donate what you have bought to the Ukrainians.

Or you could just make the cheque out to the Ukrainians directly and let them buy from wherever they choose. That is probably the best course of action overall.


....

Buying supplies from the Yanks says nothing about national sovereignty or vassalage. Vassalage would be forswearing a national foreign policy and restricting ourselves to only fighting in places the US fights.

.....

NATO is a cooperative.

A cooperative (also known as co-operative, co-op, or coop) is "an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly owned and democratically-controlled enterprise".[1] Cooperatives are democratically controlled by their members, with each member having one vote in electing the board of directors.
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The US may be the biggest member of the co-op but the dues that are owed to the co-op are to the benefit of the co-op. When Canada, Germany, France, and damnear everybody else doesn't contribute to the kitty then the co-ops benefits dry up.

If Canada had been contributing, in cash or kind, had been stocking warehouses, had been maintaining its machines, been maintaining its foundries and lathes as well as its tanks and guns and planes and ships and radios and satellites and a million other things then the co-op would have been in a place to feed supplies to the Ukrainians.

Or the Latvians, Estonians and Poles.... members of the co-op who are expecting to be supplied under the terms of the co-op because they are feeling real and present danger.

They don't want another company of Canadians with a couple of dozen LAVs. They have people. They need things to throw at the people threatening them. And they would like it if those throwable things could be supplied to people that are already killing the people threatening them.

.....

This is not about vassalage to the US. This is about meeting our co-op obligations. This is about eliminating a threat to the co-op as speedily as possible.

....

The reason Trump is beating up on NATO is precisely because he doesn't see a net benefit in continued membership. Much as I shop at Safeway rather than the Calgary Co-Op. There is no net benefit.
 
Kirkhill said:
No doubt Canada needs to grow up.

.....

While we are debating the finer points of principle Ukrainians are dying and losing ground. They most certainly are not reclaiming lost ground.
We are no better than the Republicans and Democrats in the States.

If it makes some of you feel better then spend the shortfall with the South Koreans, the Japanese. Spend it with the Norwegians and the Swedes and the Brits (if they have anything to sell you). Spend it with the South Africans, the Israelis, Turks, Indians. I would even buy from the Chinese and the Russians. Why not? The Russians are still selling oil and gas to countries supplying Ukraine. Buy from anybody but the Yanks.

Then donate what you have bought to the Ukrainians.

Or you could just make the cheque out to the Ukrainians directly and let them buy from wherever they choose. That is probably the best course of action overall.


....

Buying supplies from the Yanks says nothing about national sovereignty or vassalage. Vassalage would be forswearing a national foreign policy and restricting ourselves to only fighting in places the US fights.

.....

NATO is a cooperative.



The US may be the biggest member of the co-op but the dues that are owed to the co-op are to the benefit of the co-op. When Canada, Germany, France, and damnear everybody else doesn't contribute to the kitty then the co-ops benefits dry up.

If Canada had been contributing, in cash or kind, had been stocking warehouses, had been maintaining its machines, been maintaining its foundries and lathes as well as its tanks and guns and planes and ships and radios and satellites and a million other things then the co-op would have been in a place to feed supplies to the Ukrainians.

Or the Latvians, Estonians and Poles.... members of the co-op who are expecting to be supplied under the terms of the co-op because they are feeling real and present danger.

They don't want another company of Canadians with a couple of dozen LAVs. They have people. They need things to throw at the people threatening them. And they would like it if those throwable things could be supplied to people that are already killing the people threatening them.

.....

This is not about vassalage to the US. This is about meeting our co-op obligations. This is about eliminating a threat to the co-op as speedily as possible.

....

The reason Trump is beating up on NATO is precisely because he doesn't see a net benefit in continued membership. Much as I shop at Safeway rather than the Calgary Co-Op. There is no net benefit.
Click to expand...

A co-op requires everyone to do their part. Are we doing our part ?
 
Send a lot of LAV to Ukraine, send the Leo 2 to Ukraine. Retain 1 CMBG worth of LAV 6.0

Buy ~350 CV-90 (or even Bradley) for 1 of the CMBG, 120 M1A2 SepV4, and 24 M109A7 convert to CABG

Buy MSHORAD LAV, LAV Mortar Carrier etc to fill the LAV ‘CMBG’ with its missing enablers.

Convert 1 of the CMBG to a CLBG.


I can get you to 2% ASAP ;) and help Ukraine as well
 
The way I see it, is that Canada's military came to a full stop in maintaining a fully independant Army in terms of renewing equipments, vehicles, weaponry, modernization, training their staff, ect. as if World Wars was something of the past and that being a capable Army in terms of both defense and assault readiness isn't important, or not as much as it was when looking at previous conflits ans wars we've been into.

The lateness that we've built up on all aspects of the CAF is so important, that it's impossible to catch up, especially with a government in place that doesn't spend a lot in it's Defense budget. The gap is big, and we're missing the boat on being ready to face what's coming for Canada. We better face the facts that we're becoming a supportive ally to other countries.
 
Halifax Tar said:
A co-op requires everyone to do their part. Are we doing our part ?
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Hell no. That is my exact point. We aren't and we haven't.

The difference is that the other members have started to pony up. Canada has not and, per our illustrious leader, will never pony up.

It won't be Trump that kicks us out of the Co-Op. It will be every other member. It was always going to be hard to convince Germans and Latvians to come to Canada if we needed to defend our arctic - an arctic explored by Brits, Danes and Norwegians and claimed by them within living memory.

The only thing that kept the Canadian arctic Canadian is the Monroe Doctrine.

And there you need to worry about Trump.
 
Kirkhill said:
No doubt Canada needs to grow up.
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After WW2 we were considered as "grown up" and maintained that until a certain Liberal leader took over and decimated the CAF. Unification didn't help. The 90s "peace dividend" didn't really come true and we faced a " decade of Darkness"

9/11 changed that and after a few years we were considered as "grown ups" again .

And that all went for crap in 2015 and we are no longer an adult nation militarily or diplomatically. Remember what JT said "you don't just whip out your CF 18" - a very juvenile statement that should have been a warning as to his character. And here we are now - at the kindergarten table.
 
OldSolduer said:
After WW2 we were considered as "grown up" and maintained that until a certain Liberal leader took over and decimated the CAF. Unification didn't help. The 90s "peace dividend" didn't really come true and we faced a " decade of Darkness"

9/11 changed that and after a few years we were considered as "grown ups" again .

And that all went for crap in 2015 and we are no longer an adult nation militarily or diplomatically. Remember what JT said "you don't just whip out your CF 18" - a very juvenile statement that should have been a warning as to his character. And here we are now - at the kindergarten table.
Click to expand...
And unfortunately some of the voices in tbe liberal party who might take defense seriously have been silenced effectively
 
OldSolduer said:
After WW2 we were considered as "grown up" and maintained that until a certain Liberal leader took over and decimated the CAF. Unification didn't help. The 90s "peace dividend" didn't really come true and we faced a " decade of Darkness"

9/11 changed that and after a few years we were considered as "grown ups" again .

And that all went for crap in 2015 and we are no longer an adult nation militarily or diplomatically. Remember what JT said "you don't just whip out your CF 18" - a very juvenile statement that should have been a warning as to his character. And here we are now - at the kindergarten table.
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or out n the hall.
 
PPCLI Guy said:
We are beyond ludicrous at this point. The Liberals have no idea just how ridiculous they sound...and are.
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Reading that page makes me think that several staff wienies spent many sleepless nights finding small projects that fit the Liberals' agenda to sprinkle small piles of millions to support. It's not that the Liberals are unaware. I think they are very aware and deliberate to send messages to their stalwarts. They are not unaware how others think of them; they just don't give a shit what the rest of us think.

In the long run those listed items come out at under $200 million. The overall package is $3.02 billion for 2004, but absolutely nothing concrete said about what the other $2.8 billion is going towards - that suits their base who do not want to know about real military actions.

This is what you get when you let a drama teacher run your country.

🍻
 
FJAG said:
Reading that page makes me think that several staff wienies spent many sleepless nights finding small projects that fit the Liberals' agenda to sprinkle small piles of millions to support. It's not that the Liberals are unaware. I think they are very aware and deliberate to send messages to their stalwarts. They are not unaware how others think of them; they just don't give a shit what the rest of us think.

In the long run those listed items come out at under $200 million. The overall package is $3.02 billion for 2004, but absolutely nothing concrete said about what the other $2.8 billion is going towards - that suits their base who do not want to know about real military actions.

This is what you get when you let a drama teacher run your country.

🍻
Click to expand...

And it's all connected to a 'Princess Di moment' in history...

www.halotrust.org

Princess Diana - the walk that changed history

Princess Diana's iconic walk through a minefield in Angola is showcased in the final season of The Crown, HALO CEO James Cowan reflects on her legacy and the walk that brought the landmine issue to the world's attention.
www.halotrust.org www.halotrust.org
 
  • Humorous
Reactions: ueo
FJAG said:
Reading that page makes me think that several staff wienies spent many sleepless nights finding small projects that fit the Liberals' agenda to sprinkle small piles of millions to support. It's not that the Liberals are unaware. I think they are very aware and deliberate to send messages to their stalwarts. They are not unaware how others think of them; they just don't give a shit what the rest of us think.

In the long run those listed items come out at under $200 million. The overall package is $3.02 billion for 2004, but absolutely nothing concrete said about what the other $2.8 billion is going towards - that suits their base who do not want to know about real military actions.

This is what you get when you let a drama teacher run your country.

🍻
Click to expand...

I'm still not convinced he is running the country.

It feels more like a "class project".
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
I would be careful with statements like that: President Zelensky!!!!
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Comedians are realists. They have to be aware of what will make an audience react and how to craft their reaction. They need charm (maybe), wit and timing (always). There's genius in the art.

Drama teachers on the other hand need to merely be able to teach teenage girls not to use blackface (oops!)

🍻
 
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