Canada considers purchase of used US Army Chinooks

[h3tacco]

Roger that Short Final. I thought it was higher than 20%. I also thought the Navy payed for more of Sea King YFR  but whatever the number the number is  I would imagine it would be similar to the Tac Hel community. Though someone did tell me once that the Army wanted to pay less and wanted a single helo solution vice the three helo solution we had with the chinooks. I am not saying this was the only reason we got rid of them but was contributing factor. Unless I am totally out to lunch and that was never a factor at all.

 

[Sf2]

what I said is based on my limited scope as a line pilot.  I'm sure an OpsO or someone would have a lot more knowledge about who pays for what.....

All I know is that my log book is padded with SME's (standard maneuvers and emergs) and IF trips.  Sure there are lifted unit missions, but the ratio is about 4 or 5 : 1

 

[Zoomie]

YFR and who pays for what is something that the bean-counters in the 'Peg and elsewhere have to deal with.

In the SAR community - our training and local missions are footed out of our Squadron's budget.  As soon as we are tasked by RCC to provide a SAR service, they foot the bill.  I can only imagine that the same exists for the tac-hel units.  Like SF mentioned, it is the code that we enter into the MMA that determines who paid for X number of hours.  The army likes to be able to field its diesel sucking LAV fleet and provide live ammo for the boys - add in a couple of hours of CH-146 time, and you are quickly scraping the proverbial bottom of the money barrel.  I imagine that the army could have alot more helo-play if only they paid for it - I am sure SF and the other lads/ladies at 427 SOA would be more than happy to go and play in the weeds.

 

[beenthere]

In the "big world" CC-130 use is for the most part decided on a year or more in advance where reps from the user world put foreword a plan of their activities that are planned for the next year or whatever period of time that they use for planing purposes.
The various users have x number of hours of use allocated as per a budget for training,operational and other requirements and they plan accordingly.
At least that's the plan or the way it was done in the past. That allows the air transport planners to coordinate aircraft activities,maintenance requirements and other things that affect availability of aircraft.
This has nothing to do with the thread but it's kind of neat info.

 

[aesop081]

In the "big world" CC-130 use is for the most part decided on a year or more in advance where reps from the user world put foreword a plan of their activities that are planned for the next year or whatever period of time that they use for planing purposes.
The various users have x number of hours of use allocated as per a budget for training,operational and other requirements and they plan accordingly.
At least that's the plan or the way it was done in the past. That allows the air transport planners to coordinate aircraft activities,maintenance requirements and other things that affect availability of aircraft.
This has nothing to do with the thread but it's kind of neat info.

The CP-140 comunity works along the same lines as was recently explained to me.  The navy gets a certain share of our YFR ( MPAT and fleet esercises) and the rest goes to us for crew training and our own exercises at home at abroad.  Wait until the army gets the bill for having a CP-140 overhead....4000 lbs of fuel an hour isn't cheap !!

 

[beenthere]

Not to mention all of the peanut butter.

 

[beenthere]

Obviously Chinooks would be better suited in the air transport world with the other heavy transports.They would be a considerable burden to whatever the army support is known as.- 1 Wing?  Is that what the plan calls for or has that been decided?

 

[T Man]

YFR who pays for it -
The Air Force pays for all of the YFR. - See YFR Thread that I will start in case your interested.

Ex-1 Wing Hq Business Planner/ Ops Management

 

[Good2Golf]

It is my understanding that one of the driving reasons for getting rid of the chinooks and the kiowas and hueys was that the army didn't like paying for three types of aircraft. Much like the Sea King and the Navy, the army pays for most of the YFR for Tac Hel. The army wanted to have a single type to reduce the cost it had to pay for flying.  I could be wrong but  I am sure Duey would know the answer.

H3, army stopped paying for YFR in 92....I managed TH YFR for 3 years (99-2002) and we were responsive to Army requirements, but when it came down to the Army standing up for itself and pushing to have more YFR compared to other AF activities, they were stragnely absent from joint discussions...worrying more about MGS, MMEV and other things...don't blame them necessarily, but also don't have much time for self-pitious "we never get enough support from TH", etc...it rings a bit hollow...

All fleets YFR (essentially AvPOL) are entirely paid out of CC3 (air force) Level 1 O&M funding lines that are pushed down to L2 (1 CAD) then to L3's (Wings) and units.  The only items that are paid outside of CC3 funding line is so-called "National Procurement" support, or things the ADM(Mat)/DGAEPM world procures to mechanically support the fleets. 

The interesting deal will be 427 SOAS YFR, since that unit will be falling under OPCOM of CANSOFCOM on 1 Feb, whereas all other squadrons are under 1 CAD.  I don't think it's insurmountable at all...simple inter-CC transfer, but not saying that some ban counters might not try to make things diffucult...

Cheers,
Duey

 

[T Man]

Ah buddy saved me the trouble.

 

[Good2Golf]

ch 47s , wonderful these are the same helicopters that we sold to the dutch as it would have been too
expensive to modify them to the D standard, you can just bet this would not have happened if they had
been operated by the Army where they belong, but no the airforce was in control and fighter pilot
generals are not to interested in helicopters.
the liberals,if they run true to form they will try to get them on the cheap and we will probobly get junk and
someone will get killed, just remember the subs.

Actually, time expired, it was absolutely the opposite to what you bet!

The decision not to allocate the $400M required to upgrade CH147002-CH147009 from C+ to D-models was entirely FMC's decision, LGen Foster in particular.  I saw the Comd FMC letter sent to Comd AIRCOM in 1989, from when I worked in Plans, Doctrine & Requirements in HQ 10 TAG in 1996/1997.  CC2 (LF) funded aviation procurement from unification until 1992, AIRCOM (from 1975 to 1992) shared AvPOL costs with FMC.  After 1992, CC3 (capability component 3 - NDQH-speak for the Air Force) paid for all Tac Avn O&M costs and ADM(Mat) paid for WSSP (wpn syss sp plans) and National Procurement (parts/contracts with OEMs, etc...)

Having discussed some issues with the CDS while he was visiting us here in Afghanistan prior to Christmas, I think you would be surprized to hear that the current PM is actually a proponent and quite a strong one at that of integral aviation support to deployed forces.  He is also apparently quite a supporter of SOF, as CANSOF had built a solid amount of respect within coalition forces and their representative governments at home...

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Good2Golf]

Ah buddy saved me the trouble.

T Man, luckily we escaped the Vortex!  I don't think Troika #3 is going to be so lucky...Comd is hammering his feet to the floor! LOL

Cheers, bud!
Duey

p.s.  apology to mods and thread readers for my rather rude three posts in a row with entirely different subjects...poor form, I know.  Just coming up with different things to say....that and giddy from listing to Chinooks going "wokka-wokka" overhead while I was down visiting Khandahar for the last few days.  ;D ;D ;D

 

[mover1]

You guys are saying dirty words
Its 1 Can Air Div not 1 CAD. Remeber the million dollar name change affects us all.

NFA  does it stand for Non-forecasted airlift or no F#@king airplanes. :blotto:

 

[Good2Golf]

You guys are saying dirty words
Its 1 Can Air Div not 1 CAD. Remeber the million dollar name change affects us all.

NFA  does it stand for Non-forecasted airlift or no F#@king airplanes. :blotto:

Mover1, perhaps the Air Div's name will become a moot point in a bit...CFACC has been bandied about (CF Air Component Command)...at least CFACC is shorter than 1 Cdn Air Div (I think, vice 1 Can Air Div)...although still not as efficient as CAD..luckily you and I don't work in the "Directorate of Air Personel Management Services - D Air PM...oh, nevermind  )

Cheers,
Duey

 

[mover1]

CFACC Canadian Forces Air Component Command, WOW, Does that ever sound weak. It doesn't inspire me much. MY wife has a component that she uses when I am not around its blue too.


I just wish we could start calling things like we see them. Whatever happened to the RCAF.There is still RCR, RCA, But no RCN or RCAF at least in official circles anyways

I work at an AMS (Air Mov Sect) which is not to be confused with an AMS (Air Maintenece Squadron.)
Not to be a CAD mind you I would like to have my old job back a B Porn O but thats a different story.

Now back to the MAP and YAP.

 

[h3tacco]

Ok my bad on the whole YFR thing! ;D

I thought it worked differently  :blotto:

 

[Sf2]

Phew, I knew there were some YFR experts in here.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Zoomie]

The interesting deal will be 427 SOAS YFR, since that unit will be falling under OPCOM of CANSOFCOM on 1 Feb, whereas all other squadrons are under 1 CAD. 

Thanks for the update on the whole YFR dealio, Duey.  To tell you the truth, that dirty acronym really never comes up here in La-La land, we never come close.

However, I am pretty sure that when we launch operationally we are also outside the CoC of 1 CAD - the National SAR Secretariat chain involves Squadron to Minister level communications. 

 

[beenthere]

Duey. I had you misplaced. I'd thought that you were on the banks of the Rideau untill you gave your position away.
Within the obvious limitations can you describe a typical US Sqn/Company in terms of equipment, personell,maintenance capability etc. in a way that would provide a comparison with a Cdn. Squadron.
Also what resources outside of the unit are available. Is there a unit that provides phase type maintenance or is that all done in house?

 

[Rescue Randy]

This is a bit of a tangent that is not really related to buying used Chinooks, but perhaps I can add some clarity to the command and control discussion. Operational control is exercised for SAR through the applicable Joint Rescue Coordination Centre (JRCC), who reports to the Regional Commander.  In Comox,  the SAR mission comes under the operational control of the Comd MARPAC.  So, Zoomie, you are partially correct, you are outside the chain of 1 CAD when on an operational SAR mission.
The SAR Secretariat is a totally different animal, not dealing with operational control of missions.  You may wish to follow this link to find out what it does with your tax money.

http://www.nss.gc.ca/site/whoWeAre/index_e.asp